Author Topic: "Standard" "Suspects"  (Read 5910 times)

Offline Agastya

  • Administrator
  • A Member group
  • *****
  • Posts: 164
    • View Profile
    • oh no its a website
"Standard" "Suspects"
« on: April 18, 2012, 10:33:19 AM »
SUPER WIP

So we haven't really gotten any of these kinds of things going yet and I've been mostly putting this off due to the current struggle to hit 10 players online at any time, but I'm tired of putting this off. Here's a few criteria we should think about. Anything listed falls under one of these categories, and there can be overlap:

A) Already known to be really rockin' at what it does (Italicized)
B) Isn't really seen much but is known to be really sweet usually
C) Anything that's not formatted hasn't really been used much (from what I've saw) but might have potential to be super sweet.

It's 6AM as I'm typing this and I can't remember a lot of stuff right now, I'll probably fill it out more when there's some more suggestions, or I can remember other things.


Fast attackers
Things in this category are both fast and able to hit relatively hard without any turns of setup. These are the kinds of things that get dropped out on the field when you need to apply some pressure right away. Being a Speed form doesn't automatically drop you here.

Speed Aya
Mimi-Chan
Advent Reisen
Rikako
Yumemi
Speed Sariel? Don't see it often but it usually ends up erasing things before dying to Blade Flash.
Technical Aya


Advent Marisa
Attack Lily Black
Speed Flandre
Speed Lily Black?
Speed Rumia?
Speed Wriggle
Speed Yorihime
Youki

Powerful Attackers
The kind of things things don't like to switch in on, but still end up having to switch out of.

Dark Alice
Momiji
Advent Yukari
Attack Suwako
Helper Eirin


Rinnosuke (Kusanagi)
Ichirin

Very Powerful Attackers
When one of these comes out, something is about to die.

Attack Yuugi
Attack Utsuho
[Attack/Speed] Flandre


Bulky Attackers
These things can take hits while dishing some out at the same time. Usually will be sporting 8x/8x/8x+ defenses with a decent offensive stat, run things like Rest Talk/Bulk Up/CM, or otherwise have reliable recovery.

Ancestor
Sariel
Technical Toyohime


Set-up Attackers/Sweepers
Does it usually use Swords Dance, Agility, Nasty Plot, or Tailwind? They'll probably be put here if they're good at it. Speed is a big deal due to the lack of Choice Scarf. Neutral base 95 can outspeed 252 EV boosted base 140 with just one Tailwind. Keep both Speed AND Attack in mind with Tailwind.
Also, unless it's more meant for sweeping than walling, Calm Mind and Bulk Up sets are probably Bulky Attackers, especially if recovery moves are involved.

Advent Cirno (Tailwind)
Attack Reimu (Tailwind)
Attack Shou (Tailwind)

Goliath Doll (Agility, Tailwind)
Hatate (Nasty Plot)
Momiji (Tailwind)
Nue (Swords Dance)
Wriggle (Tailwind)

Support
Spikes, Rapid Spin, Aromatherapy. What do these moves have in common? They're not used enough yet. Stuff here will probably be able to fit that bill.

Spikers
Spikes are game-changing, creating a load of OHKOs and 2HKOs. Here's some users:

Aya
Kotohime
Lyrica

Helper Sakuya

Spinners
Getting rid of Spikes can be equally game-changing if your foe just Spikes up and sacs their Spikes user. Keep in mind that Rapid Spin is blocked by Steel types, and Twister is blocked by Earth types (hi Attack Suwako).

Aya (Twister)
Defense Hina (Rapid Spin)



Clerics
Wish, Heal Bell, and Aromatherapy. witty text comes later

Alice (Wish)
Luize (Wish, Heal Bell)
Sanae (Wish)
Yuka (Aromatherapy)
Kyouko (Heal Bell; Unofficial)


Dedicated Walls
Tough to break down, either due to resists or just straight defensive stats.

Defense Mokou
[Helper] Star Sapphire (Plain is Special, Helper is Physical - Forced out by Miasma)
[Defense] Kaguya (Typing vs HP - Defense is forced out by Miasma)
Lily White
Tenma
Kisume
Yoshika



Baton Pass
Stat boosts on attackers that can't normally get them are a very big deal. You don't even have to pass a stat though, you can just have a negative priority switch. For the sake of brevity, I'll leave this mostly as Helper forms for now:

Helper Merlin (Belly Drum, Nasty Plot)
[Helper] Star Sapphire (Barrier, Nasty Plot, Jamming)
Helper Nazrin (Swords Dance, Barrier, Lucky Chant, Lock-On, Jamming)
Helper Lunasa (Barrier, Protect, Jamming)
Helper Lily White (Mana Charge)
Helper Lyrica (Agility, Tailwind)
Helper Ran (Calm Mind, Tailwind)
Helper Sakuya (Iron Defense, Swords Dance)
Helper Shizuha (Calm Mind, Ingrain, Tailwind)

Speed Aya (Speed Boost, Agility, Tailwind)
Lily Black (Speed Boost, Agility, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot)
Mamizou (Belly Drum)
Mugetsu (Barrier, Jamming)

Baton Passed Substitutes
This is the base HP of the above Baton Pass users that can also pass Substitutes. 100+ can make Substitutes with enough HP to survive a Seismic Toss/Night Shade.

110
Mugetsu

105
Helper Ran

100
Mamizou
Helper Shizuha

90
Helper Lily White
Helper Lunasa
[Helper] Star Sapphire

85
Helper Koakuma

80
Helper Lyrica
Helper Merlin
Helper Nazrin
Helper Sakuya

60
Lily Black


---From this point it's highly incomplete as it was late when I got here, and I haven't gotten around to doing it yet---



Phazers
Some sets use Roar/Whirlwind/Haze. Not everything lives to tell the tale. Expect to see a lot of overlap with dedicated walls and sometimes bulky attackers.

Annoyers
Things that are satanic if you let them set up, but usually get shut out by Taunt. Status, subseed, the
works.

Speed Medicine
Yoshika

when nominating something state if its consistent in what it does or if you just tripped over it while walling a gimmick team without testing it any further, the latter can probably still be worth investigating depending on the gimmick it was
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 04:11:25 PM by Agastya »
[6:30:51] DoctorShanks: Is Star Sapphire actually good or do people just use her because she's cute? Or both?
[6:30:55] Irisorchid: both
[6:30:57] &Agastya: both
[6:30:59] PrinnyAce: BOTH

Offline DoctorShanks

  • :coolguys:
  • A Member group
  • *****
  • Posts: 187
  • .
    • View Profile
    • dumblr
Re: "Standard" "Suspects"
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2012, 10:54:42 PM »
Kisume (Dedicated Wall)

Consistent in what it does? Her Fire/Water typing allows her to function as a full stop to Physical Steels if they aren't running Poison Jab or Earthquake. I honestly just threw her on a Team that hated Steels which already had an answer to Miasma and EQ, (Hi Defense Hina?) and she's been doing good so far. She has access to Pain Split, Will-o-Wisp to Force out said Steels and even Confuse Ray for switch-ins. She also has useful tools like Jamming and Rock Bullet, but I imagine Jamming would take big prediction skills to pull off, and I'm not sure if an unSTABed Rock Bullet has the power to OHKO Mimi-chan with 50 Base Power (maybe after Spikes it could...) I'm going to say yes for now, but I'm also not a big competetive player. She's worked well for me so far.

Luize (Cleric)

Consistent in what it does? I would certainly say so. Heart is a fantastic defensive typing, and her ability makes her take such little damage from Fire and Ice moves. But that's besides the point; her movepool, when I first saw it, was screaming Cleric. Heal Bell and Wish are both options for her. She has a few other tools like Memento, Toxic, and Light Screen, and other small things like Safeguard and Hypnosis. Using a puppet or team in need of a Cleric with a crippling weakness to Fire and Ice? Look no further.

Rikako (Fast Sweeper)

Consistent in what it does? Her stats certainly agree. Two obvious flaws for her are her weakness to Blade Flash, and her limited movepool. Rikako does have the movepool to do some decent damage though. Psycho Boost, Mana Burst, Thunderbolt, Sonicboom, and I suppose Ominous Wind is a legitimate option too.  Her ability Insomnia can probably help her in the lead position too. Other things... she can pull off a quick Thunder Wave on the switch but that's incredibly risky and uses up a moveslot, and she gets Solarbeam as well.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 12:33:28 AM by DoctorShanks »
[8:30:13] DoctorSnacks: Are A/TSanae actually good or do people just use them because they're cute? Or Both?
[8:30:23] SupremeExplosion: Shoddy is a reskinned weenie hut juniors

Offline DoctorShanks

  • :coolguys:
  • A Member group
  • *****
  • Posts: 187
  • .
    • View Profile
    • dumblr
Re: "Standard" "Suspects"
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2012, 02:10:15 PM »
Kyouko can actually do a Clerical job now with her defenses and a secondary ability that actually allows her to use Heal Bell (could you possibly remove the 's tags' from her).
[8:30:13] DoctorSnacks: Are A/TSanae actually good or do people just use them because they're cute? Or Both?
[8:30:23] SupremeExplosion: Shoddy is a reskinned weenie hut juniors

Offline DoctorShanks

  • :coolguys:
  • A Member group
  • *****
  • Posts: 187
  • .
    • View Profile
    • dumblr
Re: "Standard" "Suspects"
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 04:04:22 AM »
Alice (Bulky Attacker)

Consistent in what it does? Yes. I remember hearing a while back that she is difficult to break down and can apply some serious damage with her Special Attack stat.

Yuka (Bulky Attacker)

Consistent in what it does? No idea. I've never seen her before, but her stats look like they fit the bill. She also learns synthesis which may or may not be useful.

Cirno (Fast Attacker)

Consistent in what it does? I would say yes, but feel free to disagree. Speed boost and a base 125 Special Attack stat are certainly nice, but Blade Flash gives her problems of course. Not to mention her type coverage isn't really the greatest, and she usually dies to just about any powerful Special attack.

I might add more to this later.I've made a few discoveries since I first arrived here.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 04:07:03 AM by DoctorShanks »
[8:30:13] DoctorSnacks: Are A/TSanae actually good or do people just use them because they're cute? Or Both?
[8:30:23] SupremeExplosion: Shoddy is a reskinned weenie hut juniors

Offline SG-Sanae

  • A Member group
  • Posts: 57
  • Sanae is a good girl
    • View Profile
Re: "Standard" "Suspects"
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2013, 04:56:04 PM »
Akyuu (Annoyer)

This might work if you can get her in on something slow without priority - Sleep Powder, Substitute, Belly Drum, Baton Pass in that order while carrying a Salac Berry can lead to the recipient ripping the opponent apart. For dedicated Baton Pass teams, Ingrain and trapping moves can be used over Belly Drum.

Offline PhantomSong

  • A Member group
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: "Standard" "Suspects"
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2013, 07:46:44 PM »

Yuka (Bulky Attacker)

Consistent in what it does? No idea. I've never seen her before, but her stats look like they fit the bill. She also learns synthesis which may or may not be useful.


I do run a Curse Yuuka and she does business. She's able to take physical damage like it's nothing. 

Offline Neotornado

  • A Member group
  • Posts: 150
  • Successfully nuzlocked Touhoumon UnNamed
    • View Profile
Re: "Standard" "Suspects"
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2013, 08:56:53 PM »
Akyuu (Annoyer)

This might work if you can get her in on something slow without priority - Sleep Powder, Substitute, Belly Drum, Baton Pass in that order while carrying a Salac Berry can lead to the recipient ripping the opponent apart. For dedicated Baton Pass teams, Ingrain and trapping moves can be used over Belly Drum.

Worth noting that Mamizou can run that same moveset and has far better stats than akyuu does, mainly a speed stat of 105. although she does have to swap sleep powder for the less accurate hypnosis, as well as deal with 2 x4 weaknesses. (which include quick attack and gale, by the way)

might I suggest Koishi as a dedicated wall? she has quite a few advantages over lily white, so it might be worth trying her out?

Whelp, it finally happened. TouhoumonUnNamed HAS BEEN COMPLOCKED.

Offline PhantomSong

  • A Member group
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: "Standard" "Suspects"
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2013, 10:54:04 PM »
Oh and Satori for set up sweepers

Offline shai_LP

  • A Member group
  • Posts: 107
  • aaaaaaaaaaa
    • View Profile
Re: "Standard" "Suspects"
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2013, 07:52:26 PM »

Speed Aya
Mimi-Chan
Advent Reisen
Rikako
Yumemi
Speed Sariel
Technical Aya

Advent Marisa ?? ??
Attack Lily Black
Speed Flandre
Speed Lily Black?
Speed Rumia?
Speed Wriggle
Speed Yorihime
Youki

Dark Alice
Momiji
Advent Yukari?
Attack Suwako
Helper Eirin

Rinnosuke (Kusanagi)
Ichirin

Attack Yuugi ?? ??
Attack Utsuho
[Attack Flandre
Speed] Flandre

Ancestor
Sariel
Technical Toyohime

Advent Cirno (Tailwind)
Attack Reimu (Tailwind)
Attack Shou (Tailwind)[/i]
Goliath Doll (Agility, Tailwind)
Hatate (Nasty Plot)
Momiji (Tailwind)
Nue (Swords Dance)
Wriggle (Tailwind) ?? ??

Aya
Kotohime
Lyrica[/i]
Helper Sakuya

Aya (Twister)
Defense Hina (Rapid Spin)[/i]

Alice (Wish)
Luize (Wish, Heal Bell)
Sanae (Wish)
Yuka (Aromatherapy)
Kyouko (Heal Bell; Unofficial)

Defense Mokou
[Helper] Star Sapphire (Plain is Special, Helper is Physical - Forced out by Miasma)
[Defense] Kaguya (Typing vs HP - Defense is forced out by Miasma)
Lily White
Tenma
Kisume
Yoshika[/i]

Helper Merlin (Belly Drum, Nasty Plot)
[Helper] Star Sapphire (Barrier, Nasty Plot, Jamming)
Helper Nazrin (Swords Dance, Barrier, Lucky Chant, Lock-On, Jamming)
Helper Lunasa (Barrier, Protect, Jamming)
Helper Lily White (Mana Charge)
Helper Lyrica (Agility, Tailwind)
Helper Ran (Calm Mind, Tailwind)
Helper Sakuya (Iron Defense, Swords Dance)
Helper Shizuha (Calm Mind, Ingrain, Tailwind)

Speed Aya (Speed Boost, Agility, Tailwind)
Lily Black (Speed Boost, Agility, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot)
Mamizou (Belly Drum)
Mugetsu (Barrier, Jamming)

110
Mugetsu

105
Helper Ran

100
Mamizou
Helper Shizuha

90
Helper Lily White
Helper Lunasa
[Helper] Star Sapphire

85
Helper Koakuma

80
Helper Lyrica
Helper Merlin
Helper Nazrin
Helper Sakuya

60
Lily Black

Speed Medicine
Yoshika


The following not crossed are in dire need of write-ups

things crossed out but marked with ?? ?? have write-ups of questionable quality.

Attack Suwako
Star Sapphire Forms
Technical Toyohime
and
Regular Aya

are things that pop up a lot in discussion/mentioning scary counters but there is naught a word of their sets around.

Dibs on doing the Dark Alice write-up

Offline joshcja

  • A Member group
  • Posts: 281
  • Burn Yo Bacon
    • View Profile
Re: "Standard" "Suspects"
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2013, 09:18:52 PM »

The following not crossed are in dire need of write-ups

things crossed out but marked with ?? ?? have write-ups of questionable quality.

Attack Suwako
Star Sapphire Forms
Technical Toyohime
and
Regular Aya

are things that pop up a lot in discussion/mentioning scary counters but there is naught a word of their sets around.

Dibs on doing the Dark Alice write-up

I've been deliberately avoiding these things because Agastya/Shanks will probably hunt down and murder the poor soul who gives them a bad writeup. >_<

The standard suspects list is also somewhat outdated and incomplete.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 09:57:20 PM by joshcja »

Offline shai_LP

  • A Member group
  • Posts: 107
  • aaaaaaaaaaa
    • View Profile
Re: "Standard" "Suspects"
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2013, 10:02:42 PM »
For the most part its pretty accurate

I'd start a new one but I don't wanna step on Agastya's toes.

Missing Advent Meiling as a Cleric/Spinner and Satori for that sweet sweet Set-up Sweep.

however, I gotta ask for science purposes.

Quote
Speed is a big deal due to the lack of Choice Scarf. Neutral base 95 can outspeed 252 EV boosted base 140 with just one Tailwind. Keep both Speed AND Attack in mind with Tailwind.

To turn this around, Does this mean Neutral Base 95 can outspeed 252 EV Boosted Base 140 Sweepers at -1 speed? [as in, they've been debuffed by something]


Offline Doesnt

  • much sand. wow.
  • A Member group
  • ***************************************************************************************
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
Re: "Standard" "Suspects"
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2013, 10:10:04 PM »
however, I gotta ask for science purposes.

Quote
Speed is a big deal due to the lack of Choice Scarf. Neutral base 95 can outspeed 252 EV boosted base 140 with just one Tailwind. Keep both Speed AND Attack in mind with Tailwind.

To turn this around, Does this mean Neutral Base 95 can outspeed 252 EV Boosted Base 140 Sweepers at -1 speed? [as in, they've been debuffed by something]

That is correct. -1 Mimi has 278 speed, so anything above base 90 can outrun at +0 with full investment (Base 90s have 279 speed).
Also a neutral base 90 can outrun Mimi-chan with only +1 speed too it looks like.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 10:11:35 PM by Doesnt »
i accidentally deleted your avatar so have 90 stars instead ~agastya

Offline DoctorShanks

  • :coolguys:
  • A Member group
  • *****
  • Posts: 187
  • .
    • View Profile
    • dumblr
Re: "Standard" "Suspects"
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2013, 10:15:00 PM »
I've been deliberately avoiding these things because Agastya/Shanks will probably hunt down and murder the poor soul who gives them a bad writeup. >_<

I will soon be in the process of hunting down any poor soul who gives ANY puppet a bad write-up. Look forward to it.

After all, just because a puppet isn't popular doesn't mean she deserves any less than the cool girls :>
[8:30:13] DoctorSnacks: Are A/TSanae actually good or do people just use them because they're cute? Or Both?
[8:30:23] SupremeExplosion: Shoddy is a reskinned weenie hut juniors

Offline shai_LP

  • A Member group
  • Posts: 107
  • aaaaaaaaaaa
    • View Profile
Re: "Standard" "Suspects"
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2013, 10:18:27 PM »
however, I gotta ask for science purposes.

Quote
Speed is a big deal due to the lack of Choice Scarf. Neutral base 95 can outspeed 252 EV boosted base 140 with just one Tailwind. Keep both Speed AND Attack in mind with Tailwind.

To turn this around, Does this mean Neutral Base 95 can outspeed 252 EV Boosted Base 140 Sweepers at -1 speed? [as in, they've been debuffed by something]

That is correct. -1 Mimi has 278 speed, so anything above base 90 can outrun at +0 with full investment (Base 90s have 279 speed).
Also a neutral base 90 can outrun Mimi-chan with only +1 speed too it looks like.

ahahahahaha oh god science time once I get home

shoutouts to Low Sweep Breloom and Anti-Lead Gengar for the idea

Offline joshcja

  • A Member group
  • Posts: 281
  • Burn Yo Bacon
    • View Profile
Re: "Standard" "Suspects"
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2013, 10:39:12 PM »

I will soon be in the process of hunting down any poor soul who gives ANY puppet a bad write-up. Look forward to it.

After all, just because a puppet isn't popular doesn't mean she deserves any less than the cool girls :>

Eh if I miss something in the OP or you know of a better spread for alternate sets lemme know and I'll edit.