Poll

What do you think about God?

I have used Tenma, and I think She is imbalanced.
8 (34.8%)
I have not used Tenma, and I think She is imbalanced.
0 (0%)
I have used Tenma, and I don't think She is imbalanced.
6 (26.1%)
I have not used Tenma, and I don't think She is imbalanced.
2 (8.7%)
I have used Tenma, but She didn't actually work out for me.
1 (4.3%)
I am unfamilliar with Tenma.
6 (26.1%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Author Topic: Tenma: Imbalanced or just harder to deal with?  (Read 2871 times)

Offline DoctorShanks

  • :coolguys:
  • A Member group
  • *****
  • Posts: 187
  • .
    • View Profile
    • dumblr
Tenma: Imbalanced or just harder to deal with?
« on: November 09, 2012, 06:09:30 AM »
"Fuck Tenma" -Agastya



Now before we begin, I should start out by saying that it's highly unlikely that this thread will have any sort of impact on Tenma's tiering. The purpose of this thread for now is meant to be a "What is your opinion on this mighty beast known as God?"

Let's get down to business, there are a good amount of past and present players who have not been okay with Tenma's existence in Standard. Assumed to be uncounterable until you've uncovered what kind of set she's running, and by that time it's usually too late. Not to mention that Tenma has the ability to perform just about every kind of role imaginable in this game, though that only seems to back up my previous sentence. What this translates to is that Tenma is good, and I mean really good - so good to the point where Her pool of comfortable counters is small.

As mentioned, Tenma has so few counters, but you're probably wondering what these few counters are by now. Let's take one that Irisorchid suggested a while back: Speed Komachi. Since Tenma's weaker stat is Defense, She is slightly easier to pick on in that respect, and Speed Komachi can exploit it to an extent. Let's pit a 252 SpAtk/252 Spe Tenma up against a Jolly 252 Attack Speed Komachi. If Speed Komachi just so happens to switch in on an Ancientpower, she's going to suffer a dangerously large chunk of her health, putting her in OHKO range of Gale. So the lesson here is to not switch in on such a dangerous move; if Speed Komachi switches in on Air Slash, she'll have a better chance. Assuming I have my calculations right, a Waterfall from Speed Komachi will leave Tenma alive, but will bring her to her knees, but Speed Komachi is toast is Tenma decides to stay in and brave that chunk of health. Now here's some good news: If Speed Komachi is holding a Swimsuit (inb4 SSKomachi), then Waterfall is an OHKO a good majority of the time. However, all of this is moot if Tenma has invested in HP rather than Speed, and Tenma will win. All in all Speed Komachi is considered a counter, but a very risky counter at that, and believe it or not there are a couple of other counters.

Here's another neat counter that was suggested in the Shoddy chat not too long ago by PrinnyAce: Cirno. Normally I would shrug her off due to her terrible Special Defense stat, but she can freely switch in on an Ancientpower, then outspeed and OHKO Tenma variants that haven't fully invested in SpDef with a Thick Fur-boosted Ice Beam. It's a mouthful, but on paper, it works; Cirno can survive Gale with around half her health remaining, and Tenma is not fast enough to outpace most Cirno without a Speed Boost in play (what I mean by this is, some Cirno will invest 279 speed so that she outspeeds everything after a Speed Boost; Tenma reaches 284 speed with a Boosting nature and 252 Speed EVs, therefore outspeeding Cirno). Unfortunately, Cirno is not a 100% counter for two reasons: The "Standard Support" Tenma can take an Ice Beam and cripple Cirno with Thunder Wave or severely damage her with Air Slash, and there's always the possibility for overprediction on your opponent's part. Short and sweet, Cirno is a viable answer to most Tenma variants, and Cirno is getting that extra jump of speed whether your opponent likes it or not.

There are other, cooler ways to deal with Her, such as stall. Aya actually resists the STAB comibation of Tenma, and can threaten a Toxic. However, it should be noted that Tenma can learn Sonicboom, though it's unlikely She'll be carrying it. Aya is very underlooked, as everyone usually drools over her Speed and Technical forms for their supportive and offensive abilities respectively. However, that's not to say that the other Aya forms can't handle Tenma, because they can. Always be wary of Paralysis; it might be a good idea to bring along a Cleric on your team along with Aya, such as Advent Alice(!!!) or Luize.

To conclude the whole "countering Tenma" issue, she is weak to Steel, Ice, and Water. Steel types are weak to Ancientpower, and an unSTABed Steel-type move is unlikely to scathe Tenma as well as you'd like. The other two types aren't resistant to Tenma's STAB combination, so they're fairly risky. Hindering Tenma is possible, but She's immune to Thunder Wave, so that leaves you with Poison and Sleep. I would personally try to poison it and wear her down. Good luck.

Whew, I spent a long time on countering Tenma, haven't I? Now let me focus on why Tenma is such a huge problem: most teams have no sure way to deal with her. And the other problem is that there are so few puppets in this game that have the ability to deal with Tenma. Switching in an offensive oriented puppet will most likely lead to death, so that basically leads to Special walls with Toxic being the only deticated answer to Her (someone please tell me how much of an idiot I am for writing that).

EDIT: BIG PROBLEM that I forgot to cover: Tenma has Sand Veil as a secondary ability. This is a huge issue, and makes Tenma noticably harder to deal with both on paper and in game. An evasion boost while your opponent suffers Sandstorm damage is no laughing matter, and it doesn't help that more and more Tenma are appearing on Sand teams with Suika leads. Smogon didn't ban Sand Veil under evasion clause for no reason. I rest my case here.

It's late; I need to conclude this. Some think Tenma is overpowered, and some think Tenma is okay and should stick around. I'm going to distrupt the neutrality of this essay, but I think Tenma needs to have something done about it, whether it be raising awareness of the awesomeness of regular Aya/Toxic Stalling, or just outright "movign it up to teh oobr tire with sendai and dsat". What do you guys think? Vote and/or write a little something in this thread, if you could.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 04:53:53 PM by DoctorShanks »
[8:30:13] DoctorSnacks: Are A/TSanae actually good or do people just use them because they're cute? Or Both?
[8:30:23] SupremeExplosion: Shoddy is a reskinned weenie hut juniors

Offline Naļ

  • A Member group
  • Posts: 140
  • In training
    • View Profile
Re: Tenma: Imbalanced or just harder to deal with?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 07:29:48 AM »
Old topic, but still relevant due to the recent ban on Tenma.

Quote from: DoctorShanks
Switching in an offensive oriented puppet will most likely lead to death, so that basically leads to Special walls with Toxic being the only dedicated answer to Her (someone please tell me how much of an idiot I am for writing that).
Yes, you're an idiot. :< (okay, not really)

If you do that, then Tenma can just Sub, set up on your face (with either Agility or CM) and wreck your whole team.

An offensive mon could deal with that kind of set, but then you risk getting paralyzed, having pretty spikes blown away, or just plain walled.

And if you try to spinblock you still run the risk of being... well, wrecked, so people would probably never spinblock you, effectively making her the best spinner in the game.



Hence,
Quote from: DoctorShanks
Assumed to be uncounterable until you've uncovered what kind of set she's running, and by that time it's usually too late.
She's not just assumed to be uncounterable until you know what she runs; she IS uncounterable until you know what she runs, unless you're the king of gambling or something.

Even the two counters you suggested, SKomachi and Cirno, just die anyway if she's running a standard defense/support set. And it's not like support Tenma was uncommon back in the day, since if you run her with Whirlwind/Twister/Roost/TWave and a defensive spread, you have pretty much all important support roles - except for spiker and cleric, which aren't absolutely essential depending on your kind of team.

Then, SKomachi/Cirno switch in, get a t-wave in their face, Tenma switches out and laughs. Both of these are pretty much already dead weight if they're paralyzed, and if the team running Tenma has Wish support... yeah, things aren't pretty.

But then... couldn't SKomachi/Cirno break her if they ran Lum? Sure, that works against support Tenma, but offensive variants just beat you anyway if you're not running Swimsuit/Fur Coat, remember?



Oh, and you also mentioned Toxic stalling. That might indeed be the best way of dealing with her, for the most part, especially if you run something like specially defensive Aya as a dedicated Tenma counter.

However, offensive Tenma has the option of just running Sonicboom (since Aya is a well-known Tenma counter, and since Flying is a common switch-in against her), which you will have trouble with; smart defensive Tenma users, on the other hand, are probably well aware that the biggest counter for support/defensive Tenma is Toxic, and, knowing that, they can just run Cleric support and make you cry.



So... yeah.
Let's all start running Explosion Mimi-chan to kill Tenma.
But then Tenma teams will just start running Ghosts or defensive Darks and make you cry.

...
Man, am I glad she's banned. How is that thing NOT imbalanced?
People who said that must never have played against her without using one themselves, really.













EDIT:
You could also *probably* counter her with either an Explosion powerful enough to OHKO her or a faster Destiny Bond.

However, let's not forget that most things running a powerful Explosion are pretty easy to see coming (read: Mimi-chan), so Tenma has the option of, like I mentioned before, just switching into a Ghost or a bulky Dark and making you cry.

Let's also not forget that she can run a physical defensive spread pretty well thanks to her typing, so if you throw in a shabby Explosion/Selfdestruct, she might just tank it if she's at full HP - and even if she's not at full HP, if you throw in a slow Explosion, she can just Roost before it happens.

Plus if you throw a slow Explosion against a Calm Mind Tenma that's managed to set up, she can just OHKO you before it happens, and Explosions that are BOTH slow and strong are really, really easy to see coming (read: MIMI-CHAN); if you throw a super-fast Explosion against an Agility Tenma that's managed to set up, she can just laugh at your speed and hit you anyway, which is not good if you're not at full HP; the exact same can be said about Gale Tenmas, especially if you're running Explosion on something Flying-weak.



Then there's Destiny Bond. However, that only really counters the offensive variants, and even then, Destiny Bond is easy to see coming for the most part.

Also, let's not forget that, for Destiny Bond, you have to be faster than Tenma. And let's not forget that Tenma can run Thunder Wave (even on more offensive variants - who says that hybrid Tenma is not viable?), effectively making you cry.

So, kids, what have we learned today?
Quote from: Agastya
fuck tenma
Wise words, Agas, wise words indeed.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 08:16:48 AM by Naļ »

Offline EXSariel

  • AKA The Jamminstein (as Agastya puts it)
  • Administrator
  • A Member group
  • *****
  • Posts: 121
    • View Profile
Re: Tenma: Imbalanced or just harder to deal with?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2013, 10:27:13 PM »
Any puppet that evolves from more then one source puppet is technically and possibly theoretically imbalanced, because that's a distinction very few puppets get. Amongst them, Tenma is simply the worst offender, because both her source evolutions are radically different, resulting in an extremely diverse movepool. The fact that Tenma only gets one puppet to evolve from and can't benefit from moves the other has is simply what holds her back from being absolutely broken.

The reason why this makes Tenma difficult to deal with is that it makes her exceedingly versatile, piled on a really high BST and an amazing stat spread. Plenty of puppets receive both of the latter, but Tenma sets herself apart by having a movepool that's easily double that of most others. This versatility makes finding hard counters extraordinarily hard. You can, however, find more then enough checks for her provided you know her well, and can take a guess at what set she may be running from how your opponent has been playing. (sent her out earlier or later, how their team composition is built, whether or not she's being supported...)

Tenma might still be overpowered compared to most of the game though because she requires her opponent to be very well versed while her user simply has to make sure not to be stupid, imbalancing the skill cap in battle a little. I'm probably just spouting things out of my ass at this point though so feel free to ignore me. I just hate impossibly tanky things.
I'm not here.

Offline Doesnt

  • much sand. wow.
  • A Member group
  • ***************************************************************************************
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
Re: Tenma: Imbalanced or just harder to deal with?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2013, 12:49:49 AM »
so giga drain is a thing tenma was actually supposed to be able to do

fucking

giga drain

also with regards to pre-evos, keep in mind that even without them tenma gets spikes/t-wave/sub/air slash/heat wave/roost by level

losing mana charge would hurt it a bit though
i accidentally deleted your avatar so have 90 stars instead ~agastya

Offline Rhetco

  • A Member group
  • Posts: 70
  • Waaaaaaahh
    • View Profile
Re: Tenma: Imbalanced or just harder to deal with?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2013, 03:29:01 AM »
losing mana charge would hurt it a bit though


Hey wanna know something funny


Tenma gets Calm Mind via TM
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 06:36:31 AM by Rhetco »
One day I'll be famous for all the amazing things I've achieved. But until then, I'm going to continue doing absolutely nothing.

Offline joshcja

  • A Member group
  • Posts: 281
  • Burn Yo Bacon
    • View Profile
Re: Tenma: Imbalanced or just harder to deal with?
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2014, 03:47:40 AM »
Sorry 4 nerco >_<

going to preface this wall of text with "This is all my opinion after making the viability thread and sitting down for like 2 hours with calcs so if she stays ubers whatever, more Mokou abuse for me"

Anyways figured I'd put my thoughts on this down on pseudo paper. A large factor of Tenma's broken nature is her ability to run multiple sets effectively giving her "no" hard stops. This is onyl true in a metagame where A) Sand Veil exists, which should honestly be banned as it violates evasion clause but whatever, and B) in an uncentralized metagame where omgwaifu is the standard for team building. Frankly A may never happen, so tenma4ubers is still totally justified, however on the off chance sand veil ever gets a blanket ban I'll be covering why B already exists to an extent.

Point is....Tenma for S rank without hax veil
Anyways here's the logic (assuming no sand veil)

Counters:

ALL offensive variants of Tenma straight lose to Sara, Sariel, DLetty, DDaiyousei, Kayuga, Murasa, the Aya forms, Yumemi, and Mamizou.
ALL full support (AP as only attack) variations of Tenma lose to and can have their hazards removed by/Be set up on by, Aya, TAya, Sariel, Sara, Speed Medicine, Aki Sisters, Attack Tewi, Defense Daiyousei, Magic Stones, Mamizou, (D)Hina, Raiko and Medicine

Checks:
Non Agi offensive varients of Tenma can be revenged by, Offensive Water/Ice/Steel users faster than base 80 timid. Can be Defensively checked by Toxic users with high Spdef such as Suika, DKayuga etc
Agi offensive variants can be offensively checked with priority, defensive toxic users, and can be beaten by offensive resists such as Raiko.
Support variants of Tenma can be checked by fast taunt users such as Nue, powerful special wall breakers such as APatchouli, AMurasa and ASanae, or the rabid maid Yumeko/Any damn Steel type can be brought in with a slow baton pass. Pretty much just run a thing to beat up the bird and support it with the standard tools for abusing powerful sweepers/wallbreakers (slow B pass, wish support, armoatherapy, that sort of thing)


Ok so what the hell does this all mean?
Most of Tenma's checks and counters are....really damn high on the viability ranking list meaning that the supposedly infinite Tenma has her number of viable sets reduced by the most viable/used mons in the game's simple existence since they either... A) Outclass Tenma completely in one of her roles, or.... B) Make one or more of Tenma's sets completely nonviable simply by existing.. Pigeonholing her into some variation of what I would consider her one viable set.

Bulky Attacker:
Tenma @ Leftovers
Ability: Gaurd Armor
Ev's 248 Hp/108 Spatk/96 Spd/56 Spdef
Nature:Calm
-Ancientpower
-Air Slash
-Roost/Other support move
-Other Attack/Other support move

To discuss, Tenma cannot function without both Air Slash and Ancientpower currently, period, too many damn things just spin or set up all over her otherwise. Tenma needs 96 speed to outpace max speed neutral base 60's to maintain any sort of viability, 108 Spatk to always Ohko H Eirin, break Sara's subs, 2 hit KO Konngara, and have a chance in HELL of 2 hit Koing Nue with Sanicbum, 56 Spdef Calm and 248 Hp is needed to comfortably avoid the Ohko on things like Rash Cirno Ice Beam or 20 Spatk HEirin Aqua shower. So as you can see the 4 MSS is strong here

Suprise factor! She cans Farms Kills!
No, Look at the lists above and you will see that certain Mon's are entirely capable of handling every single Tenma set possible 1v1. Run em if your that terrified, or just run redundant checks (Which you should be doing for everything in S tier anyways), play aggressively, and learn to scout sets effectively.

OVERCENTRALIZING
"But wait just cause those things exist doesn't mean everyone runs them! Your Still using half your team to counter Tenma!" Well thats true to an extent, but to be honest its rarely necessary to specifically check or counter Tenma, most teams pulling mon's from the higher viability ranks will often have a whopping 3 or 4 checks/counters per team without even trying.

Discuss and stuff/Call josh a nublet
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 07:49:11 PM by joshcja »

Offline Agastya

  • Administrator
  • A Member group
  • *****
  • Posts: 164
    • View Profile
    • oh no its a website
Re: Tenma: Imbalanced or just harder to deal with?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2014, 06:30:53 PM »
i unbanned tenma for a little bit. let's see what happens since we haven't had to face her for a while.
[6:30:51] DoctorShanks: Is Star Sapphire actually good or do people just use her because she's cute? Or both?
[6:30:55] Irisorchid: both
[6:30:57] &Agastya: both
[6:30:59] PrinnyAce: BOTH