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Shoddy Battle 2 => General Metagame => : joshcja February 07, 2014, 05:43:48 PM

: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja February 07, 2014, 05:43:48 PM

People yelling at me Community Feedback is pretty much needed to make this work so feel free to say things

Preliminary ranking is up, go ahead and start commenting on how everything is wrong :p
[inspoiler]I was prettty spare with my praise in terms of the A ranked mons so a lot of things will probably move up if someone gives a goodish reason. S rank is cream of the cream of the crop though. so there's really only a few candidates for that[/inspoiler]
Will change as Usage thingy updates/people actually type things in replies

Ranking Definition Thingy

For sanities sake I'm defining "the metagame" as puppets that receive at least 2% usage on
Doesnt's usage stat thread. So while I'll be jamming every non chibi onto this list only the
puppets over the 2% cutoff mark will be considered when actually ranking the puppets.

S Rank: Reserved for puppets who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little
support, and puppets who can support other puppets with very little opportunity cost ("free
turns"). Also the home of puppets who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing
their versatility and unpredictability. If the puppet in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are
thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

A Rank: Reserved for puppets who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but
require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting
puppets in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves,
but can still do their job most of the time.

B Rank: Reserved for puppets who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame,
but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support puppets in this category have
flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Puppets who
are partially outclassed by a puppet in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also
fall into this category.

C Rank: Reserved for puppets who can be effective given the right support, but either have
crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically
inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.

D Rank: Reserved for puppets who are simply not very effective in the current metagame.

S Rank:

Spoiler

Advent Reisen
Aya
BenBen
Defense Kaguya
Defense Shinmyoumaru
Helper Eirin
Rin
Sariel
Speed Flandre
Speed Tojiko
Suika
Technical Aya
Tenma
Youki
Yumeko

A Rank:

Spoiler

Advent Mokou
Aki Sisters
Attack Lily Black
Attack Flandre
Attack Keine
Attack Miko
Attack Patchouli
Attack Raiko
Attack Reimu
Attack Remilia
Attack Shou
Attack Suwako
Attack Tewi
Chiyuri
Cirno
Dark Alice
Defense Daiyousei
Defense BenBen
Defense Keine
Defense Letty
Defense Yuyuko
Helper Kagerou
Helper Star Sapphire
Helper Yoshika
Kaguya
Kasen
Kokoro
Konngara
Kotohime
Luize
Luna Child
Lyrica
Magic Stones
Mamizou
Mimi-Chan
Mokou
Momiji
Namazu
Nue
Sara
Seiga
Shinmyoumaru
Speed Kogasa
Speed Komachi
Speed Lily Black
Speed Medicine
Speed Yamame
Technical Byakuren
Technical Kokoro
Technical Kyouko
Technical Sanae
Technical Toyohime
Technical Yuka
Toyohime

B Rank:

Spoiler

2hu
Advent Alice
Advent Cirno
Advent Marisa
Advent Meiling
Attack Chen
Attack Daiyousei
Attack Eirin
Attack Kayuga
Attack Kazami
Attack Koishi
Attack Kokoro
Attack Komachi
Attack Lily White
Attack Luna Child
Attack Murasa
Attack Nitori
Attack Sanae
Attack Star Sapphire
Attack Suika
Attack Tenshi
Byakuren
Chen
Defense Hatate
Defense Hina
Defense Mamizou
Defense Miko
Defense Mokou
Defense Murasa
Defense Seija
Defense Suwako
Defense Tenshi
Defense Tewi
Defense Wakasagihime
Defense Yukari
Daiyousei
Eirin
Elis
Flandre
Futo
Goliath Doll
Hakurei
Hatate
Helper Koakuma
Helper Lily White
Helper Lunasa
Helper Nazrin
Helper Sakuya
Hina
Ichirin
Kagerou
Kana
Kazami
Keine
Kisume
Kogasa
Kyouko
Layla
Lily Black
Lily White
Lunasa
Medicine
Meiling
Meira
Mugetsu
Murasa
Raiko
Ran
Reimu
Reisen
Rika
Rikako
Rinnosuke
Ruukoto
Sakuya
Sanae
Satori
Seija
Shingyoku-F
Shingyoku-O
Shinki
Shizuha
Shou
Speed Marisa
Speed Meiling
Speed Rin
Speed Rumia
Speed Sariel
Speed Seiga
Speed Shizuha
Speed Wriggle
Speed Yorihime
Speed Youmu
Star Saphire
Techinal Futo
Technical Hatate
Technical Kisume
Technical Luna Child
Technical Sakuya
Technical Sekibanki
Technical Suika
Tenshi
Tensoku
Trancendant Renko
Utsuho
Wriggle
Yamame
Yoshika
Yorihime
Yuka
Yumemi
Yuyuko
Zombie Fairy

C Rank:

Spoiler

Advent Chen
Advent Letty
Advent Mystia
Advent Ran
Advent Tewi
Advent Yukari
Akyuu
Alice
Attack Alice
Attack Hina
Attack Kanako
Attack Marisa
Attack Medicine
Attack Mokou
Attack Minoriko
Attack Mystia
Attack Nue
Attack Ran
Attack Rin
Attack Rumia
Attack Shikieki
Attack Sunny Milk
Attack Tokiko
Attack Utsuho
Attack Yuka
Attack Yuugi
Attack Yuyuko
Defense Byakuren
Defense Ichirin
Defense Kanako
Defense Layla
Defense Meiling
Defense Minoriko
Defense Momiji
Defense Patchouli
Defense Reisen
Defense Remilia
Defense Shikeiki
Defense Sunny Milk
Defense Wriggle
Defense Youmu
Defense Yuugi
Ellen
Elly
Gengetsu
Genji
Helper Keine
Helper Letty
Helper Lyrica
Helper Merlin
Helper Mystia
Helper Ran
Helper Shizuha
Helper Yatsuhashi
Kanako
Kikuri
Kirisame
Koakuma
Koishi
Komachi
Kurumi
Letty
Mai
Margatroid
Marisa
Merlin
Miko
Mima
Minoriko
Mystia
Nazrin
Nitori
Orange
Parsee
Patchouli
Remilia
Rumia
Sekibanki
Shikeiki
Shingyoku-M
Speed Cirno
Speed Koishi
Speed Utsuho
Sunny Milk
Suwako
Techinical Alice
Technical Chen
Technical Cirno
Technical Ichirin
Technical Kogasa
Technical Medicine
Technical Nazrin
Technical Nitori
Technical Nue
Technical Parsee
Technical Satori
Technical Shou
Technical Yamame
Technical Yukari
Tewi
Tojiko
Tokiko
Wakasagihime
Yatsuhashi
Youmu
Yukari
Yuki
Yuugi

D Rank:

Spoiler

Every Chibi Ever
Defense Iku
Defense Parsee
Defense Reimu
Hourai
Iku
Kedama
Reisen II
Shanghai
Technical Iku
Technical Reisen
Tori
Yuugenmagan

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja March 06, 2014, 03:27:46 PM

A post thingy to put notes on semi/almost controversial stuff in and possible changelog

Current Suspect: None

Changelog:
AdMokou A>S
ATewi B>A
Cirno B>A
SRumia C>B
Tenma Uber>S
AKeine A>S
Namazu C>B (Fishy never leave me <3)
AEirin C>B
Shou C>B
Added all the shiny new mons inclusind the "fixed" TKokoro
BenBen A>S
ADai A>B
AKeine S>A
AReimu S>A
SMedi/Sara/Lyrica S>A
Byakuren/Reimu C>B

Stuff goes here eventually [inspoiler]Who am I kidding, Idle zone ahoy!!![/inspoiler]

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: Maltie March 18, 2014, 03:55:16 AM

A few questions and opinions:

I feel like Cirno should be lowered to C rank. She can be completely obliterated by SKomachi, Yorihime, Youki, or Yumeko with a bladeflash + pursuit or draw the line, and it doesn't help that all of these guys appear very often in the metagame. Plus, Kisume, also appearing pretty often, can wall most of her attacks.  Having a 4x weakness to steel is not cool to begin with, anyway.

I'm also wondering why Kana was highly ranked.
I mean, her stats are mediocre, and it's not like her support movepool is all that fantastic.
Is it because of spikes + perish song?

Also, random thought, but I've seen a TReisen sweep before, but that might've been out of luck.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja March 18, 2014, 12:19:10 PM

: Maltie  March 18, 2014, 03:55:16 AM

A few questions and opinions:

I feel like Cirno should be lowered to C rank. She can be completely obliterated by SKomachi, Yorihime, Youki, or Yumeko with a bladeflash + pursuit or draw the line, and it doesn't help that all of these guys appear very often in the metagame. Plus, Kisume, also appearing pretty often, can wall most of her attacks.  Having a 4x weakness to steel is not cool to begin with, anyway.

Cinro's was in ARank cause she fit the definition, she can sweep a significant portion of the metagame with support but has a flaw that can prevent her from doing so consistently. (aka she has really hardcore 4mss and yumeko exists). cant say I would ever consider her lower than B rank tho, cause speed boost cleaners are kinda awesome.

TL:DR I'll bump her down to B and throw her in borderline B>A for further debate n shit cause she fits both A and B definitions and its just a question of how folks feel bout it

Minor irks/inaccuracies here
"For sanities sake I'm defining "the metagame" as puppets that receive at least 2% usage on
Doesnt's usage stat thread."

 |Kisume              43   1.02%

Also Yorihime pretty much HAS to run T bolt these days, Youki running blade flash is....almost unheard of, and S Komachi doesn't even learn blade flash (Did you mean attack koma?)


I'm also wondering why Kana was highly ranked.
I mean, her stats are mediocre, and it's not like her support movepool is all that fantastic.
Is it because of spikes + perish song?

Kana is B rank cause she has a niche in the meta thanks ot her nifty resistances and her immunity in levitate + a support movepool of spikes, WoW, Toxic, memento, perish song and pain split though she is prone to giving up free turns and cannot wall or sweep a significant portion of the metagame.

Also, random thought, but I've seen a TReisen sweep before, but that might've been out of luck.

She certainly has the stats for it with a decent spatk and 90 base speed + decent bulk. However she really lacks unique traits that would put her ahead of the other monoheart CM abusers and is generally outclassed by her normal form as a pure sweeper and by Satori in terms of utility because trace turns way too many things into setup fodder. If I see her develope a unique niche she'll get bumped up to B tier though.

Replies in red

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: ZXNova March 20, 2014, 11:04:09 PM

Kana does Kana things. Also, whoever uses memento? Only time I can ever think of memento being good is when their last puppet can sweep your whole team *cough*TAya*cough and it's worth sacrificing your life to debuff them.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja March 21, 2014, 12:41:54 AM

: ZXNova  March 20, 2014, 11:04:09 PM

Kana does Kana things. Also, whoever uses memento? Only time I can ever think of memento being good is when their last puppet can sweep your whole team *cough*TAya*cough and it's worth sacrificing your life to debuff them.

"Lyrica used spikes!"
"Lyrica used memento! Lyrica fainted, other things attack harshly fell, special attack harshly fell"
"AReimu used Tailwind"
"ZXNova used Die horribly!"

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: Bea May 23, 2014, 02:26:39 PM

Why is AdTewi D-Rank? I don't think Encore off 125 bSpd could be called only "troublesome", and she can run both a dedicated support set with decent-ish bulk or an offensive set with Encore + Nasty Plot.

That and she gets many good moves with low distribution and utility, such as Prank, two forms of recovery (one making her an unexpected status absorber), double screens, Taunt, three forms of status, phazing, Spikes, Sub, Spin, even Trick... I think her versatility is almost Tenma-like, in fact, though her BST and stats are of course far lower.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja May 23, 2014, 10:41:24 PM

: Bea  May 23, 2014, 02:26:39 PM

Why is AdTewi D-Rank? I don't think Encore off 125 bSpd could be called only "troublesome", and she can run both a dedicated support set with decent-ish bulk or an offensive set with Encore + Nasty Plot.

That and she gets many good moves with low distribution and utility, such as Prank, two forms of recovery (one making her an unexpected status absorber), double screens, Taunt, three forms of status, phazing, Spikes, Sub, Spin, even Trick... I think her versatility is almost Tenma-like, in fact, though her BST and stats are of course far lower.

AdTewi is to Tenma as Phione is to Arceus. Extrapolate from there

[inspoiler]She's hardcore outclassed in every role she preforms[/inspoiler]

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: Bea May 25, 2014, 02:35:24 PM

I successfully played a few matches using a team I built based on DReimu and DParsee as a defensive core.

DParsee: +SpDef, -Atk; 252 SpDef, 252 Def, 6 HP
- Pain Split
- Toxic
- Will-o-wisp
- Signal Beam

DReimu: +Def, -SpAtk; 252 Def, 252 SpDef, 6 HP
- Cross Chop
- Whirlwind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

The near-0 HP EVs on Parsee were necessary so as to successfully run Pain Split. With them, her HP is very near a DHina's with 252 HP, and 252 HP DHina does use Pain Split effectively (I've run it a thousand times on my alpha team!). Both are mixed walls, but one is more specially defensive, while the other is physical-oriented.

Both also cover for each other's weaknesses wonderfully: the only weakness left uncovered is Faith, which DParsee is weak to but DReimu doesn't resist. Neither are good at dishing out damage, either, so I needed good and consistent damage dealers for the rest of the team, as well as strong checks for Konn, Sariel and stallbreakers (though I'm not sure how to handle Sara).

Other than that, I needed a cleric - I think it synergizes well with having someone with Resttalk on the team, and DParsee is weak to status -, a spinner, and a good spiker that wouldn't die so easily while retaining decent damage. I used Tenma on my first runs, but with how my team is built, I think I might be better off with a vanilla Aya.

So I built a defensive core with two D-ranks and it suddenly worked without them holding me back?! I think something's wrong o_o.

---

I think puppets like Yuugenma and the Iku forms could easily ascend to C-rank granted the administration agreed on giving them on Shoddy the balance changes from EM... you might compare Levitate Yuugenma to DHina and think Yuugenma's useless, but Yuugen does have far higher SpAtk and HP, as well as Disable. Thanks to that, Yuugen would more than likely have a far easier time with Steel switch-ins, and Disable can force switches, allowing Spikes to do their work and a Pain Split being used on what's likely a full-HP switch-in early game. DHina can't do that, and most Steel types wall her to hell and back even if she has Flamethrower or Fire Blast.

The most notable example is Konn, but then again, Konn walls 252 SpAtk Yuugenma as well, even if Konn chose physically defensive EVs. Yuugen-chan can still attempt to Disable her recovery or her Braver, though, forcing a switch or allowing a safe switch-in should she try outrunning your PP.

252+ SpA Yuugenmagan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Konngara: 160-190 (41.66 - 49.47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Yuugenmagan Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Konngara: 122-144 (31.77 - 37.5%) -- 0.02% chance to 3HKO

On the other hand,
0 SpA DHina Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Konngara: 106-126 (27.6 - 32.81%) -- possible 4HKO
0 SpA DHina Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Konngara: 78-94 (20.31 - 24.47%) -- possible 6HKO

And it gets even worse if it's classic SpDef Konn, even if that has become a little uncommon nowadays. Even against SpDef Konn, though, Yuugen still has Disable as a weapon.

As for the Iku forms, Wind is actually a great defensive type, and all of her forms have access to Resttalk + Static. I don't think she'd be that bad if she had Surf: in fact, I think DIku is already C-rank even now, since she can TWave to great effect and combine it with either Encore or Resttalk. DIku also has offenses considerable enough for her to be able to hurt people with Thunderbolt, without sacrificing bulk for it.

---

TReisen is just sad, I honestly think a buff is needed here... even I don't know what to do with her ;_;
The most she has is Encore off 90 BSpd, as well as dual screens, which could aid her in an attempt to work as a bulky attacker... she also gets Mist Ball + Mana Burst, which is a good combination. But honestly, she could at least get CM, it'd synergize well with her stats.

IMHO, Tori, Hourai, Shanghai, Reisen II and the chibis should be in a different rank altogether... for the non-chibi mons, like Tori and Reisen II, they have the same BST as any other chibi, so I think all of these should be LC-rank (even if some aren't allowed in LC).

I'll test AdTewi a little myself, I think there must be at least one viable moveset for her considering her array of options... what I've noticed is that vanilla Luna can Encore + Nasty Plot more effectively, but she might actually be a better Spikes + dual screens lead than Kotohime (!), considering she's sitting just above the 120 tier and has Slack Off to work with... AdTewi's Encore is also faster. It's also worth noting that she's only outsped as a spinner by Chen and Luna, of which neither have an one-slot recovery such as Slack Off.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja May 25, 2014, 10:41:31 PM

"I used these 2 DRanks in a core and only had to give them every form of support possible but they didnt hold me back!"

as for thee other D rankers If aga suddenly updates to EM movepools and spreads obv I'd have to reconsider their ranking

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: Bea May 26, 2014, 02:42:08 AM

Uhm, I'm sorry, but I'd make exactly the same considerations if I was running a core such as HEirin + that other girl I forgot? There are very few mons who require no support at all (Sendai and TrMaribel come to mind, but they're kind of banned).

I only described the support I decided to give them, which was mostly offensive support - and, to be honest, I don't see why giving offensive support to a defensive core would make that core bad. Isn't the defensive core there to switch in and take hits?

Having such a defensive core allows me to switch into both of the mons "holding me back" very freely, forcing switches and hurting the other side myself... one side supports each other. I think it only seems to you that "i gave them support" because I built the team based on them and wouldn't take them out no matter what, but they support the team just as they are supported themselves.

As for spikers and spinners, pretty much every team in existence needs them, really... and a cleric was just put in for convenience, but I might as well have filled my team with Lums and relied on DReimu for status sponging instead. Though that'd leave DParsee vulnerable, which was a problem, and I didn't want to sacrifice Leftovers on her.

You could fight me later when I'm available and see the team in practice, it's not bad at all. ;)
Or, better yet, you could test it yourself - but who'd want to play with "a bunch of D-ranks" anyway? Not worth your time, right?

---

@Thread: no really, both DReimu and DParsee have no gaping typing flaws, reliable recovery and their own niches - DParsee can run dual-status while walling, while DReimu can phaze and is immune to status herself.

I think your mind is a bit... closed. In fact, the community in general seems to determine something's "bad" almost arbitrarily. Usage specifics or difficulty in building a valid set don't mean the mon is bad, not until you've tried everything and played with them.

People were saying Ruukoto was the worst mon ever until even crazier people went and actually made viable movesets for her. Did she suddenly turn into a shining star because of that? No, but it's certainly proven that she is at least playable, and can be useful in the right team.

tl;dr: test things

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja May 26, 2014, 05:10:16 AM

The specific issues with D Parsee and DReimu is that they do lack reliable recovery (Pain split and restalk are far from reliable) offer no offensive pressure and are outclassed by mons that are in C rank AND they check or counter almost no revelant mons in the A/S ranks. I'm pretty adamant about the DRanks as I pretty much picked the WORST of the worst for that.

if your looking for gems in the muk gonna suggest looking in C/B ranks as I was pretty sparing with the S and D ranks so plenty of stuff in the middle can rise or fall with little to no debate. But yes shockingly I did put in consideration before saying something was either the super tippy top of tippy top tier or utter shit.

Also this slipped my mind tilll now but... BEAST

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: Bea May 26, 2014, 11:58:11 PM

True, I had forgotten about Beast, but I covered for it as well. That and Beast types aren't thaaat common (I know there are plenty of good ones, though!), and, most importantly, Beast-coverage is only rarely used, and is usually predictable when a mon does have reasons to use it.

Hmm, I think Pain Split and Resttalk do happen to be good... Pain Split is obviously not nearly as reliable as other forms of recovery, but I think it's more than enough to distinguish a wall from a bulky attacker with the same stats, and it's convenient both due to the fact of being able to hurt the opponent and because it's an one-slot (unlike Wish+Detect). The main problem is that it's a little prediction-reliant, but DParsee did force switches when I used her due to the heavy statusing, so it was an okay bet.

As for Resttalk, it's less reliable in that you're forced into random moves for two turns afterwards (meaning it's difficult to Rest two turns in a row, for example), but Rest does tries to compensate for it by recovering 100% of the user's HP. Resttalk also offers the advantage of turning the user into a status sponge, which is a definite befinit: there's not much point in having a move such as Recover if you're left vulnerable to Toxic. And if you're in an emergency, you could always switch out after Resting, then let a cleric heal her sleep condition, for example - though that never happened to me while I was playing this team.

All in all, both moves definitely have their disadvantages, but I've run both of them successfully often in a few different mons (Pain Split is heavenly on DHina!). They're forms of recovery, just like any other.

As for having no offensive pressure, Yoshika and DHina don't have offensive pressure either, and that doesn't mean they're bad. ~.~

DParsee has been useful for me with her dual-status ability (and both do damage the opponent), while Signal Beam does its job when needed. The problem is DReimu, who has to rely on actual attacks off not very high base stats, and a not-very-consistent movepool... she does get Whirlwind, though, as well as Silver Wind and CM if need be. On mine, I used Cross Chop mainly to crit abuse; Revenge is also an option, given her naturally low speed.

To be honest, I haven't really played them exteeeensively, but Night Shade DParsee could check AdReisen, for example (resisting manabeam and having even a 0.25x resist on one of those is honestly no joke), switching into a Luster Purge taking only 8.03 - 9.41% damage before Leftovers. And assuming AdReisen's carrying EBall:

252 SpA AdReisen Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD DParsee: 154-182 (42.65 - 50.41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
...if it hits. As for the subs, she can take care of them. It's likely that DParsee will be left weakened afterwards, and this is honestly theorymon, but there's a good chance the opponent will switch out when AdReisen is low on HP to try and preserve her as a revenge killer, giving you a chance to Pain Split a full HP opponent.

DReimu resists both of AdMokou's stabs too, and isn't weak to her coverage moves (she doesn't have beast punch, now does she?), but will likely have trouble against her if running Cross Chop. Silver Wind or Force Palm could force AdMokou to switch out, though. (Come to think of it, DReimu has an interesting option in Revenge as well.)

Another relevant example:
252 Atk Youki Draw The Line vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def DReimu: 97-115 (24.8 - 29.41%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 Atk Youki Draw The Line vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def DReimu: 195-229 (49.87 - 58.56%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO

It'll hurt a little, but DReimu can switch into Youki risking a Swords Dance, then Whirlwind and Rest, or attack with Cross Chop/Revenge if he has been damaged before (Revenge is a guaranteed OHKO with one layer of Spikes). If he doesn't SD, he can't break through her, giving her time to attack. In this situation, switching out would actually be wise for Youki, which, in turn, gives you an opening to scout and stack Spikes damage with WW.

Superpower Yumeko, if running 252 ATK and Adamant, can be a little dangerous to DParsee; however, Parsee can just switch in, then burn her and Pain Split or attack afterwards. After Superpower + burn, she'll be forced to choose between switching or death, and that's only if she happened to run Superpower. Yumeko doesn't usually run Lum, either.

252 Atk TAya Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def DReimu: 130-154 (33.24 - 39.38%) -- 15.23% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA DReimu Silver Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD TAya: 162-192 (55.67 - 65.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I don't remember how many ATK EVs TAya usually runs, but I do know she usually runs Jolly rather than Adamant. I didn't bother checking the A rank, but it shouldn't go too differently.

---

Well, other than that, I don't know? I'd like you to point out the C-rank mons who outclass these two, since I could compare movesets and adapt to them if they really do happen to be outclassed (like Yuugenma is by DHina, which forces Yuugenma to run Disable to differentiate himself), or just conclude that those two straight-out need a buff and no questions asked... though I think the later is a bit unlikely.

What do you think about Ellen? I honestly hated Hemo's idea of taking Natural Cure off of her and giving her Spring Charm instead... I know Spring Charm makes sense on her, but so does Natural Cure. I mean, did she need a nerf or something? Why not just give her Spring Charm instead of Own Tempo, then keep her Natural Cure so that she can do something that Lily White can't do?

The advantages Ellen has over Lily are Burn Powder, a slightly better defensive type, higher special attack, a slowpass possibility and a gimmick jampass strategy (am I the only one who thinks jampass is gimmicky?...). On every other aspect, though, not only does Lily outclass Ellen, she actually humiliates her. Wish+Detect? Lily can do it. One-slot recovery? Call Lily. Actually use Spring Charm well? Lily can even resttalk if she feels like it!

Meanwhile, there are better slowpass users around than Lily (she'd have trouble slowpassing against something with 60 BSpd or less), and Lily doesn't really miss the special attack considering she can just status, Encore or recover forever anyway...

And again: no matter how low you think of the mons ranked in D-rank right now, I still think it's unfair to categorize them the same way you classify Tori, Reisen II and chibis... those aren't "not very effective in the current metagame", they're simply OHKOed by even DReimu in the current metagame. '-'

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja May 27, 2014, 10:10:51 AM

As for the outclassing, DReimu is outclassed by DIchirin, DKanako, Shingyouku-M etc. DParsee is outclassed by the other bajillion bulky heart ghosts with better movepools in C rank, along with the bajillion bulky hearts and bulky ghorsts.

@ calcs, your useing the wrong attacker spreads.

What TAya Doesnt run a boostign item with adamant o.o?
252+ Atk Airline Uniform TAya Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def DReimu: 171-202 (43.73 - 51.66%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band TAya Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def DReimu: 213-252 (54.47 - 64.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

DTL on Youki is just sadface
252 Atk Special Bloomers Youki Battle Chant vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def DReimu: 181-214 (46.29 - 54.73%) -- 9.77% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Maid Uniform Youki Battle Chant vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def DReimu: 289-342 (73.91 - 87.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

>Implying DParsee lives superpower
252+ Atk Special Bloomers Yumeko Superpower vs. 0 HP / 252 Def DParsee: 332-392 (91.96 - 108.58%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Yumeko Sculpture vs. 0 HP / 252 Def DParsee: 262-310 (72.57 - 85.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

On the note of Yosika and DHina, Yoshika has her terrible offenses offset by her ungodly BULK and D Hina has spin+ fire coverage.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: Bea May 27, 2014, 12:45:26 PM

: joshcja  May 27, 2014, 10:10:51 AM

As for the outclassing, DReimu is outclassed by DIchirin, DKanako, Shingyouku-M etc. DParsee is outclassed by the other bajillion bulky heart ghosts with better movepools in C rank, along with the bajillion bulky hearts and bulky ghorsts.

@ calcs, your useing the wrong attacker spreads.

What TAya Doesnt run a boostign item with adamant o.o?
252+ Atk Airline Uniform TAya Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def DReimu: 171-202 (43.73 - 51.66%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band TAya Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def DReimu: 213-252 (54.47 - 64.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

She can still get in on TAya and resttalk. If TAya chooses to keep being brave, the recoil will hurt; if TAya sees it as a setup opportunity, she risks taking a Silver Wind to the face.

DTL on Youki is just sadface
252 Atk Special Bloomers Youki Battle Chant vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def DReimu: 181-214 (46.29 - 54.73%) -- 9.77% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Maid Uniform Youki Battle Chant vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def DReimu: 289-342 (73.91 - 87.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Again, she can still get in on Youki and Revenge or WW.

>Implying DParsee lives superpower
252+ Atk Special Bloomers Yumeko Superpower vs. 0 HP / 252 Def DParsee: 332-392 (91.96 - 108.58%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Yumeko Sculpture vs. 0 HP / 252 Def DParsee: 262-310 (72.57 - 85.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Implying band Yumeko, which isn't common at all from what I've seen (people usually like her bulk, so Leftovers is far more common), would randomly use Superpower on a random switch-in. Also implying she hadn't attacked before, otherwise she's forced to Superpower twice in a row.
And I don't think a burned +2 Yumeko can really do much against anybody that isn't weak to one of her STABs...

On the note of Yosika and DHina, Yoshika has her terrible offenses offset by her ungodly BULK and D Hina has spin+ fire coverage.

I'll check the "outclassing" mons you mentioned and answer here later. However, what I can say is that the only "bajillion" Heart/Ghosts in C-rank are Merlin and HMerlin, which I don't think outclass DParsee simply because they play far too differently. While both have Wish+Detect, which could be put to use in HMerlin, both are also far less bulky than DParsee, and neither has double-status or stall as an option: they're more centered around other support options and Serene Grace use.

As for DReimu:
- DKanako doesn't have Resttalk as an option (please don't ignore my rantings about resttalk before you say it's "not reliable at all" again), and indeed lacks any form of recovery at all, serving only as a bulky attacker or a support, but never as a wall. She also lacks DReimu's special defense, which allows DReimu to function as a mixed wall.
- The same goes for DIchirin. While her offensive movepool is much better, and she has two very good abilities in Gatekeeper and Focus, she has neither special defense or recovery.
- Shingyoku-M and Shingyoku-F both do outclass DReimu and DParsee respectively, but I think neither of them would be allowed in UU.

PS: I think Shingyoku-M and F should both be A-rank, they're ungodly despite only having Resttalk/Pain Split as their recovery options. Both fare far better than DMokou as a wall, for example, no matter whether you choose them to be mixed or focused - and DMokou is a B-rank. The only real advantages DMokou has would be Natural Cure and Whirlwind, but Shingyoku-M is naturally pseudo-immune to status on a Resttalk set anyway. Both also actually have plenty offensive potential, which I think is scary on mons with recovery options (albeit "unreliable") and colossal defensive stats.

PPS: I think this thread will be useful in building an actual UU metagame later, along with the Usage Stats (http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/forum/index.php?topic=225.0) thread <3. We need more people actively participating and discussing

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja May 27, 2014, 01:02:56 PM

http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/forum/index.php?topic=158.0

Lum and Bloomers are both suuuper common items on Yumeko. Sans that she's normally seen with a type booster. lefties are actually pretty rare.

A completely inoffensive wall not beign able to swap into the things it needs to check makes it pretty unviable imo @_@.

Vs 252/252 AKags

Spdef DIchirin Earth Power: 32.81 - 38.54% Earthquake: 22.91 - 27.34%
Mixed bulk DReimu Earth Power: 27.87 - 33.24% Earthquake: 25.31 - 29.92%

So DIchirin can actually boost her spdef to a comparable level while having higher physical bulk even when uninvested. Plus...

0 Atk DReimu Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 0 Def AKaguya: 129-153 (33.85 - 40.15%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk DIchirin Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 0 Def AKaguya: 142-168 (37.27 - 44.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As for recovery DIchirin is normaly seen with max atk Drain Punches.

As for the "not allowed in UU" comment... Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: Bea May 27, 2014, 01:47:50 PM

: joshcja  May 27, 2014, 01:02:56 PM

http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/forum/index.php?topic=158.0

Lum and Bloomers are both suuuper common items on Yumeko. Sans that she's normally seen with a type booster. lefties are actually pretty rare.

Is that so? I thought it was the other way around... maybe the people I played with just happened to run more defensive Yumeko spreads.

A completely inoffensive wall not beign able to swap into the things it needs to check makes it pretty unviable imo @_@.

The point is what it needs to check and what it's actually able to check. I agree with you in this, but we haven't really looked at all the potential threats yet, and of course it's going to be tougher for DParsee to stop a physical threat, even with Wisp... I think her strategy is more centered on switching into special threats, Toxic'ing/walling them, then Pain Split or Wisp if you predict the opponent will switch.

Vs 252/252 AKags

Spdef DIchirin Earth Power: 32.81 - 38.54% Earthquake: 22.91 - 27.34%
Mixed bulk DReimu Earth Power: 27.87 - 33.24% Earthquake: 25.31 - 29.92%

So DIchirin can actually boost her spdef to a comparable level while having higher physical bulk even when uninvested. Plus...

0 Atk DReimu Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 0 Def AKaguya: 129-153 (33.85 - 40.15%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk DIchirin Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 0 Def AKaguya: 142-168 (37.27 - 44.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As for recovery DIchirin is normaly seen with max atk Drain Punches.

DIchirin still retains status weakness and inability to phaze, both of which help DReimu greatly. Drain Punches also have the con that they have to actually hurt to be able to recover considerable HP - meaning if a Reason-type switches in, she all but forces DIchirin to switch. That also happens with DReimu, but it isn't as hard a counter for her.

As for the "not allowed in UU" comment... Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread

What I implied was that DReimu and DParsee could be viable alternatives in UU in place of mons like the Shingyoku forms. In fact, isn't that what the C and D ranks are all about? Not very many people would like running them in Standard, because they're either outclassed or have a hard time performing their job - which is what Pokemon UU is for, and which is why I think an actual UU tier in Shoddy would be very valid. This thread will certainly become a reference in that subject as well.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja May 27, 2014, 06:00:27 PM

: Bea  May 27, 2014, 01:47:50 PM

What I implied was that DReimu and DParsee could be viable alternatives in UU in place of mons like the Shingyoku forms. In fact, isn't that what the C and D ranks are all about? Not very many people would like running them in Standard, because they're either outclassed or have a hard time performing their job - which is what Pokemon UU is for, and which is why I think an actual UU tier in Shoddy would be very valid. This thread will certainly become a reference in that subject as well.

"Standard" viability thread, they're pretty much dusclops tier. Aka nobody uses it even in UU and everyone wonders why its not in the fabled NU land of safety and hope.

Also this tier list is for showing viability in standard play, not current or future tiering.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: Bea May 27, 2014, 10:57:54 PM

As I see it, an important factor to consider when thinking about UU mons is how viable they are in Standard, right? If I mention UU using Standard as a basis, I don't think you can just say "this is standard tier thread why are you talking about uu lol" and kick me out?...

The fact is that Standard is practically the only tier available for play in Shoddy right now, though. I find that a little sad, since not only there's no variety, but there is no active encouraging to seek such variety either... you guys might be casually missing out on 2/3 of the game. But well, you should do what you're comfortable with, I guess.

And I think it's a bit funny you'd say this thread is only for showing viability in Standard, yet you rate mons based on Standard in a rank from S to D... that's already a tiering system in itself, the only difference is that you don't intend to restrict anybody based on it.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja May 28, 2014, 12:44:59 AM

: Bea  May 27, 2014, 10:57:54 PM

As I see it, an important factor to consider when thinking about UU mons is how viable they are in Standard, right? If I mention UU using Standard as a basis, I don't think you can just say "this is standard tier thread why are you talking about uu lol" and kick me out?...

The fact is that Standard is practically the only tier available for play in Shoddy right now, though. I find that a little sad, since not only there's no variety, but there is no active encouraging to seek such variety either... you guys might be casually missing out on 2/3 of the game. But well, you should do what you're comfortable with, I guess.

And I think it's a bit funny you'd say this thread is only for showing viability in Standard, yet you rate mons based on Standard in a rank from S to D... that's already a tiering system in itself, the only difference is that you don't intend to restrict anybody based on it.

I consider B rank or higher easily useable in standard and C rank to be "well its tricky but sure go ahead". Pretty sure that's not "missing out on 2/3ds of the meta"

Your also making 2 false assumptions

A) that I haven't tried out the D/C ranked mons
B) that people actually make teams based on this thread

And no at the end of the day UU is determined by useage and the blacklist. How viable a mon is in standard/ou has nothing to do with its tiering. Take gen 5 Stoutland and Cress as an example of mons that had an overwhelmingly powerful niche in OU but were narrow enough to reside in MUCH lower tiers.

In terms of seeking variety. Someone makes a good setup, other people race to counter it. The number of nifty and somewhat innovative ways people have come up with to counter various A/S ranked cores often requires dipping into B or even C rank and if that mon proves truly effective at dealing with standard cores/teams then I tend to bump em up. Yes its become a somewhat centralized meta but to be honest having common mons to Ev around removes the need for 252/252 sets and offers more room for janky shit when team/set building.

TL:DR If we ever get the player base to support a UU tier either someone who really likes UU or myself can and probably will make a UU viability thread.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: Mille May 28, 2014, 05:05:16 AM

what is even going on down here

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja May 28, 2014, 05:22:25 AM

The Nai debates, Revenge Of The D Ranks Pt 9001 coming to a box office near you!

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: shai_LP July 20, 2014, 10:50:15 AM

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread-b-and-c-pokemon-discussion.3495992/


Dividing A-C to Plus Neutral Minus within Ranks when

(drunk)

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja July 20, 2014, 12:35:28 PM

: shai_LP  July 20, 2014, 10:50:15 AM

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread-b-and-c-pokemon-discussion.3495992/


Dividing A-C to Plus Neutral Minus within Ranks when

(drunk)

Never, the whole +/-/n thing bugs me as its more or less a completely subjective subtiering and I would never hear the end of shit like "my waifu A+ cause she's more lewd than that guys waifu" or "Shouldn't we move AReimu from S+++Superfudgecoateddelicioussuperbonbongoooo to S because I want to make this page long arguement for the mighty sweeper Reisen 2 for that spot"

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: chaosakita September 25, 2014, 05:36:56 AM

Could someone help me explain what's so particularly bad about Iku, Yuugenmagan, and Technical Reisen?

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: DoctorShanks September 25, 2014, 06:42:25 AM

: chaosakita  September 25, 2014, 05:36:56 AM

Could someone help me explain what's so particularly bad about Iku, Yuugenmagan, and Technical Reisen?

No one's really explored some of the stuff in D Rank so they go almost entirely unused. Players are quick to reach for more consistent puppets.

The Iku's aren't bad; they're just extremely awkward and only seem to work well on teams that appreciate Paralysis support. Iku's can be annoying if played right with a little luck on your side, though. Iku and Defense Iku can run Static, so when they switch in to a move that requires physical-contact, the opponent has a 30% chance of being Paralyzed. Iku can then take advantage of her incredible base 130 SpAtk stat to hit the opponent with her powerful STAB Thunderbolt. Defense Iku can take advantage of a Paralyzed opponent with Knock Off. Technical Iku is different in that she actually has a somewhat workable Speed stat that she can abuse with Charge Beam or even Icy Wind to punish would-be checks and counters.

The big reason why I think Iku isn't used is because she's extremely predictable. Iku's most powerful attack is Thunderbolt, and her only way of dealing with Earth and Nature types is with Water Pulse and Razor Wind respectively coming off her incredible SpAtk stat. Defense Iku creates very little offensive pressure (though her Thunderbolt still hurts), and Technical Iku is just way too gimmicky and is outclassed by other Wind-types. The best thing about Iku is that she only has one weakness. Not a bad puppet, but very difficult to slap on a team, even one that needs Paralysis support.

----

Yuugenmagan gets unfairly compared to Defense Hina. Yuugenmagan can't spin, and it's not immune to Earth-type moves, but it takes Physical hits a bit better, takes Special hits WAY better, is slightly faster and slightly stronger specially, heals more with Leftovers, and has an undervalued stall-oriented ability in Pressure. Unfortunately, Yuugenmagan's move-pool is shallow, it doesn't learn Will-O-Wisp, and the rest of the tools that Defense Hina has available to her are more valued in competitive play.

----

Tech Reisen trades 15 points of Speed and SpAtk for 25 points of Defense and 5 points of SpDef with her original evolution. Tech Reisen also trades Mana Charge, Sonicboom, and Heart's Eye for... Encore, which she barely has the speed to run now. Even if you do need Tech Reisen's Defense for a supportive set, there are better defensive Heart-types, and better Sleep-sponges, so unless you absolutely need both of those things, and know how to use a Damage Calculator to make EV spreads, then there will probably be a better option.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: chaosakita September 25, 2014, 10:34:27 AM

I looked at Yugenmagan again. Wow, its stats and movepool are really terrible. Thanks for the help!

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: Neotornado September 25, 2014, 04:44:36 PM

Another one I'm slightly confused over. Why is regular utsuho one rank higher then both of her forms? Seems like the other forms both outclass her in terms of speed and firepower. (and movepool, as speed gets areoblast)

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: Doesnt September 25, 2014, 06:39:25 PM

Regular Utsuho has the best bulk of the three, along with the widest support movepool; namely, Roost, Will-o-wisp, Twister, and Whirlwind. It's not a *lot* of bulk, but combined with her useful typing (she flat walls AdMokou) it gives her a definite niche. She also has workable Special Attack to perform Attack Utsuho's beatstick job decently enough, and has a handy Speed advantage; she also gets Air Slash and Brave Bird, which Speed Utsuho does not.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: chaosakita September 25, 2014, 07:38:34 PM

Can anyone explain why Lyrica is so good? I swear I've looked things up before asking this.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: Zak-something September 25, 2014, 10:45:16 PM

IIRC its because Lyrica has great speed and Spikes and Momento (which cripples your opponent's offenses and allows a free switch, allowing you to use set up moves easier, as your opponent will either switch out or have to make due with halved attack).

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: chaosakita September 28, 2014, 11:24:27 PM

Minor error I noticed: Kaguya and Defense Yukari have their names misspelled

EDIT: Bonus question, can anyone explain what makes Rin so much better than Attack or Speed Rin? Sorry for all the questions, I'm trying to get an understanding of the metagame.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja September 30, 2014, 10:29:01 AM

: chaosakita  September 28, 2014, 11:24:27 PM

Minor error I noticed: Kaguya and Defense Yukari have their names misspelled

EDIT: Bonus question, can anyone explain what makes Rin so much better than Attack or Speed Rin? Sorry for all the questions, I'm trying to get an understanding of the metagame.

Bulk, Typing, movepool

Rin is the hardest stop to physical mon's not packing waterfall or a boosted brave bird. For example she can eat up even airline T Aya brave Bird from full.

Fire gives cat the ability to hard wall steels, grants her acess to wil-o-wisp and flare blitz is a solid stab

Beast makes cat into Giritina-O in sand, and allows her to ohko Tbyakuren with heat claw while granting a valued ghost resist.

Rin also has a ton of movepool options ranging from phasing (Roar, perish song), priority (espeed) a boosting move (Sub Curse) trapping (Fire spin) and has a solid speed tier at 95 with a more than ueseable spdef stat  and semi reliable healign in wishtect.

Her drawbacks are somewhat negligible compared to her strengths, weakess to (4x) water and (2x) flying with a vulnerability to toxic.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: chaosakita October 08, 2014, 11:09:38 PM

Why is Murasa ranked higher than AMurasa? More bulk?

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja October 10, 2014, 01:17:34 AM

AMurasa has more physical bulk actually. In addition she can run offensive or defensive sets.

However normal murasa has several advantages, namely that her typing is MUCH better suited to a special defensive role,  aqua jet is solid priority, and while shadow punch is pure sadness waterfall and ice punch are wonderful vs sub cmers.

Basically Murasa is "worse" in a vacuum than AMurasa however Murasa suits the metagame better.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: andaltmorf October 10, 2014, 03:17:41 AM

I know she has Sand Stream and decent S.Def, but is there more to make Suika S-rank? I don't think she has a reliable source of recovery, so walling would be a limited-time type thing for her. I'll admit her resistances are better than her other evolutions due to not being part Fire, but she is fairly slow and her defense is hardly perfect...

Could someone please explain in full? Or is it just, well, "Perma-sand and she can take some hits"?

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: Doesnt October 10, 2014, 08:29:10 PM

: andaltmorf  October 10, 2014, 03:17:41 AM

I know she has Sand Stream and decent S.Def, but is there more to make Suika S-rank? I don't think she has a reliable source of recovery, so walling would be a limited-time type thing for her. I'll admit her resistances are better than her other evolutions due to not being part Fire, but she is fairly slow and her defense is hardly perfect...

Could someone please explain in full? Or is it just, well, "Perma-sand and she can take some hits"?

(http://i.imgur.com/yRZeYBB.jpg)

along with what you said, which the others are lacking. Sand also makes a lot of other things (Rin, Mamizou, Kagerou) much more obnoxious than they normally would be.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: andaltmorf October 13, 2014, 07:17:01 AM

Ah, missed that one, somehow. The ideal sand-team lead, then. Perma-sand, and enough defenses and health to get spikes down, possibly multiple layers.

Taking another look, Substitute and Toxic are also present in her movepool via the relearner and TM respectively, so definitely a top-tier lead...and probably almost always packing Leftovers, to get at least a little tanking in.

I tend to think of puppets' useability in terms of mid-to-late battle, so 'ideal lead' never seems to come to mind no matter what I'm looking at. Thanks for clearing that up.

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: joshcja October 13, 2014, 10:47:52 AM

Suika will rarely lead on sand herself tbh cause saying "I r sand" turn one is a generaly bad plan. Sand has some glaring weaknesses as an archetype (Lunarians and burds) so you'll see a lot of S medi's/antileads/Trick banders

That said what puts suika at S is her flat bulk+sand+spikes with 120/80/120 bulk she's just one of those mon's you flat out fail to ohko with anything short of a high powered boosted SE 120 base stab off something silly strong. She hits back with solid coverage or simply toxics or spikes on your face and is almost always run with "standard" sand structure of cat/nature/steel making any attempt to straight kill her a flat joke. Or in other words she gives up 0 free turns spinblocks her own spikes and is super fucking annoying to swap into at anythign resemblign full hp while turning cat/doge/racoon lady into satan, no expanation, just satan.

A suika and T suika lack the bulk that makes her normal form so fuck all annoying however they hold respectable niches.

ASuika can be run either on offensive sand that lacks a need for Suikas fat or as a hard counter to sand itself with high str bulk up.

T suika is uuuuuh...special. (shot)

[inspoiler]If I kept logs I'd post some of Suika making ZNova cry manly tears here v.v, since I dont lets just say he has like...5 teams made specificly to counter sand semi with everything from 6 lum users (all of which have taunt) to rain dance spam + asuika. Thats how good fat oni is[/inspoiler]

: Re: Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread
: Doesnt July 20, 2015, 02:26:34 AM

why are reimu and byakuren both in C

you put eiki in C too so don't give me that as an explanation