Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread

[joshcja]

http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/forum/index.php?topic=158.0

Lum and Bloomers are both suuuper common items on Yumeko. Sans that she's normally seen with a type booster. lefties are actually pretty rare.

A completely inoffensive wall not beign able to swap into the things it needs to check makes it pretty unviable imo @_@.

Vs 252/252 AKags

Spdef DIchirin Earth Power: 32.81 - 38.54% Earthquake: 22.91 - 27.34%
Mixed bulk DReimu Earth Power: 27.87 - 33.24% Earthquake: 25.31 - 29.92%

So DIchirin can actually boost her spdef to a comparable level while having higher physical bulk even when uninvested. Plus...

0 Atk DReimu Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 0 Def AKaguya: 129-153 (33.85 - 40.15%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk DIchirin Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 0 Def AKaguya: 142-168 (37.27 - 44.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As for recovery DIchirin is normaly seen with max atk Drain Punches.

As for the "not allowed in UU" comment... Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread

[Bea]

http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/forum/index.php?topic=158.0

Lum and Bloomers are both suuuper common items on Yumeko. Sans that she's normally seen with a type booster. lefties are actually pretty rare.

Is that so? I thought it was the other way around... maybe the people I played with just happened to run more defensive Yumeko spreads.

A completely inoffensive wall not beign able to swap into the things it needs to check makes it pretty unviable imo @_@.

The point is what it needs to check and what it's actually able to check. I agree with you in this, but we haven't really looked at all the potential threats yet, and of course it's going to be tougher for DParsee to stop a physical threat, even with Wisp... I think her strategy is more centered on switching into special threats, Toxic'ing/walling them, then Pain Split or Wisp if you predict the opponent will switch.

Vs 252/252 AKags

Spdef DIchirin Earth Power: 32.81 - 38.54% Earthquake: 22.91 - 27.34%
Mixed bulk DReimu Earth Power: 27.87 - 33.24% Earthquake: 25.31 - 29.92%

So DIchirin can actually boost her spdef to a comparable level while having higher physical bulk even when uninvested. Plus...

0 Atk DReimu Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 0 Def AKaguya: 129-153 (33.85 - 40.15%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk DIchirin Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 0 Def AKaguya: 142-168 (37.27 - 44.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As for recovery DIchirin is normaly seen with max atk Drain Punches.

DIchirin still retains status weakness and inability to phaze, both of which help DReimu greatly. Drain Punches also have the con that they have to actually hurt to be able to recover considerable HP - meaning if a Reason-type switches in, she all but forces DIchirin to switch. That also happens with DReimu, but it isn't as hard a counter for her.

As for the "not allowed in UU" comment... Shoddy "Standard" Viability Ranking Thread

What I implied was that DReimu and DParsee could be viable alternatives in UU in place of mons like the Shingyoku forms. In fact, isn't that what the C and D ranks are all about? Not very many people would like running them in Standard, because they're either outclassed or have a hard time performing their job - which is what Pokemon UU is for, and which is why I think an actual UU tier in Shoddy would be very valid. This thread will certainly become a reference in that subject as well.

[joshcja]

What I implied was that DReimu and DParsee could be viable alternatives in UU in place of mons like the Shingyoku forms. In fact, isn't that what the C and D ranks are all about? Not very many people would like running them in Standard, because they're either outclassed or have a hard time performing their job - which is what Pokemon UU is for, and which is why I think an actual UU tier in Shoddy would be very valid. This thread will certainly become a reference in that subject as well.

"Standard" viability thread, they're pretty much dusclops tier. Aka nobody uses it even in UU and everyone wonders why its not in the fabled NU land of safety and hope.

Also this tier list is for showing viability in standard play, not current or future tiering.

[Bea]

As I see it, an important factor to consider when thinking about UU mons is how viable they are in Standard, right? If I mention UU using Standard as a basis, I don't think you can just say "this is standard tier thread why are you talking about uu lol" and kick me out?...

The fact is that Standard is practically the only tier available for play in Shoddy right now, though. I find that a little sad, since not only there's no variety, but there is no active encouraging to seek such variety either... you guys might be casually missing out on 2/3 of the game. But well, you should do what you're comfortable with, I guess.

And I think it's a bit funny you'd say this thread is only for showing viability in Standard, yet you rate mons based on Standard in a rank from S to D... that's already a tiering system in itself, the only difference is that you don't intend to restrict anybody based on it.

[joshcja]

As I see it, an important factor to consider when thinking about UU mons is how viable they are in Standard, right? If I mention UU using Standard as a basis, I don't think you can just say "this is standard tier thread why are you talking about uu lol" and kick me out?...

The fact is that Standard is practically the only tier available for play in Shoddy right now, though. I find that a little sad, since not only there's no variety, but there is no active encouraging to seek such variety either... you guys might be casually missing out on 2/3 of the game. But well, you should do what you're comfortable with, I guess.

And I think it's a bit funny you'd say this thread is only for showing viability in Standard, yet you rate mons based on Standard in a rank from S to D... that's already a tiering system in itself, the only difference is that you don't intend to restrict anybody based on it.

I consider B rank or higher easily useable in standard and C rank to be "well its tricky but sure go ahead". Pretty sure that's not "missing out on 2/3ds of the meta"

Your also making 2 false assumptions

A) that I haven't tried out the D/C ranked mons
B) that people actually make teams based on this thread

And no at the end of the day UU is determined by useage and the blacklist. How viable a mon is in standard/ou has nothing to do with its tiering. Take gen 5 Stoutland and Cress as an example of mons that had an overwhelmingly powerful niche in OU but were narrow enough to reside in MUCH lower tiers.

In terms of seeking variety. Someone makes a good setup, other people race to counter it. The number of nifty and somewhat innovative ways people have come up with to counter various A/S ranked cores often requires dipping into B or even C rank and if that mon proves truly effective at dealing with standard cores/teams then I tend to bump em up. Yes its become a somewhat centralized meta but to be honest having common mons to Ev around removes the need for 252/252 sets and offers more room for janky shit when team/set building.

TL:DR If we ever get the player base to support a UU tier either someone who really likes UU or myself can and probably will make a UU viability thread.

[Mille]

what is even going on down here

[joshcja]

The Nai debates, Revenge Of The D Ranks Pt 9001 coming to a box office near you!

[shai_LP]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread-b-and-c-pokemon-discussion.3495992/


Dividing A-C to Plus Neutral Minus within Ranks when

(drunk)

[joshcja]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread-b-and-c-pokemon-discussion.3495992/


Dividing A-C to Plus Neutral Minus within Ranks when

(drunk)

Never, the whole +/-/n thing bugs me as its more or less a completely subjective subtiering and I would never hear the end of shit like "my waifu A+ cause she's more lewd than that guys waifu" or "Shouldn't we move AReimu from S+++Superfudgecoateddelicioussuperbonbongoooo to S because I want to make this page long arguement for the mighty sweeper Reisen 2 for that spot"

[chaosakita]

Could someone help me explain what's so particularly bad about Iku, Yuugenmagan, and Technical Reisen?

[DoctorShanks]

Could someone help me explain what's so particularly bad about Iku, Yuugenmagan, and Technical Reisen?

No one's really explored some of the stuff in D Rank so they go almost entirely unused. Players are quick to reach for more consistent puppets.

The Iku's aren't bad; they're just extremely awkward and only seem to work well on teams that appreciate Paralysis support. Iku's can be annoying if played right with a little luck on your side, though. Iku and Defense Iku can run Static, so when they switch in to a move that requires physical-contact, the opponent has a 30% chance of being Paralyzed. Iku can then take advantage of her incredible base 130 SpAtk stat to hit the opponent with her powerful STAB Thunderbolt. Defense Iku can take advantage of a Paralyzed opponent with Knock Off. Technical Iku is different in that she actually has a somewhat workable Speed stat that she can abuse with Charge Beam or even Icy Wind to punish would-be checks and counters.

The big reason why I think Iku isn't used is because she's extremely predictable. Iku's most powerful attack is Thunderbolt, and her only way of dealing with Earth and Nature types is with Water Pulse and Razor Wind respectively coming off her incredible SpAtk stat. Defense Iku creates very little offensive pressure (though her Thunderbolt still hurts), and Technical Iku is just way too gimmicky and is outclassed by other Wind-types. The best thing about Iku is that she only has one weakness. Not a bad puppet, but very difficult to slap on a team, even one that needs Paralysis support.

----

Yuugenmagan gets unfairly compared to Defense Hina. Yuugenmagan can't spin, and it's not immune to Earth-type moves, but it takes Physical hits a bit better, takes Special hits WAY better, is slightly faster and slightly stronger specially, heals more with Leftovers, and has an undervalued stall-oriented ability in Pressure. Unfortunately, Yuugenmagan's move-pool is shallow, it doesn't learn Will-O-Wisp, and the rest of the tools that Defense Hina has available to her are more valued in competitive play.

----

Tech Reisen trades 15 points of Speed and SpAtk for 25 points of Defense and 5 points of SpDef with her original evolution. Tech Reisen also trades Mana Charge, Sonicboom, and Heart's Eye for... Encore, which she barely has the speed to run now. Even if you do need Tech Reisen's Defense for a supportive set, there are better defensive Heart-types, and better Sleep-sponges, so unless you absolutely need both of those things, and know how to use a Damage Calculator to make EV spreads, then there will probably be a better option.

[chaosakita]

I looked at Yugenmagan again. Wow, its stats and movepool are really terrible. Thanks for the help!

[Neotornado]

Another one I'm slightly confused over. Why is regular utsuho one rank higher then both of her forms? Seems like the other forms both outclass her in terms of speed and firepower. (and movepool, as speed gets areoblast)

[Doesnt]

Regular Utsuho has the best bulk of the three, along with the widest support movepool; namely, Roost, Will-o-wisp, Twister, and Whirlwind. It's not a *lot* of bulk, but combined with her useful typing (she flat walls AdMokou) it gives her a definite niche. She also has workable Special Attack to perform Attack Utsuho's beatstick job decently enough, and has a handy Speed advantage; she also gets Air Slash and Brave Bird, which Speed Utsuho does not.

[chaosakita]

Can anyone explain why Lyrica is so good? I swear I've looked things up before asking this.