Touhou Puppet Play Forums
Shoddy Battle 2 => General Metagame => : shai_LP August 24, 2013, 09:31:16 AM
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/13fXIZZhbvNRB5D85pjXbT4A9Aqgrs0JFTLd3oqysK_0/edit
Theres a back-up of this but I'd still appreciate if no one kills the formatting.
[When adding a link over a name please keep the color formatting]
Text Only No Explanations List
Ok due to the slowly growing community of shoddy I'd say a threat list is almost needed as a semi replacement for standard suspects. This is pretty much my attempt to remove as much personal bias as possible before doing real work because I'm bad at objective.
Anyways due to the insane amount of viable mons the goal was to narrow it down to top 50 attack/Def top 20 support without overlapping. Before I actually go and finish this thing off (Props to Shai for doing all the real work so far) heres the big list.
If you feel anything has been missed, missplaced, or over rated feel free to list what and the reasons why.
Offensive:
AdCirno
AdMarisa
AdMokou
AdReisen
AKayuga
AKiene
AKoishi
ALilyBlack
AMinoriko
AMurasa
APatchouli
AReimu
ARemilia
ARin
ASanae
AShou
AStar
ASuwako
ATenshi
AUtsuho
Chen
Dark Alice
(A/S)Flandre
Hatate
Ichirin
Kasen
Lyrica
Miko
Mimi-chan
Momiji
Nitori
Rikako
Satori
Seiga
Shingyoku-O
SLilyBlack
SKoishi
SMarisa
SRin
SSariel
SYorihime
SYoumu
TAya
TByakuren
TToyohime
Wriggle
Yorihime
Youki
Yumeko
Yumemi
Defensive:
DMeiling
Medicine
DSuwako
AdAlice
Admeiling
AkiSisters
Alice
Aya
Chiyuri
DDaiyousei
DHatate
DByakuren
DHina
DIchirin
DKayuga
DKeiine
DLayla
DLetty
DMokou
DTenshi
DTewi
DYuyuko
Gengi
HEirin
HKieine
HShizuha
HStarSaphire
Kayuga
Kikuri
Kisume
Konngara
LilyWhite
Louize
Magic Stones
Murasa
Namazu
Nue
Rin
Rumia
Ruukoto
Sara
Sariel
Shingyoku-F
Shingyoku-M
Star Saphire
Suika
TSanae
Yamame
Yoshika
Yuuka
Support:
ATewi
Shizuha
HKoakuma
HLunasa
THatate
HNazrin
HSakuya
Kotohime
LilyBlak
Sakuya
SKogasa
SMedicine
SKomachi
SYamame
TYuuka
Mamizou
Mugetsu
ZFairy
Old OP: Doesn't even need to go in-depth to a thing's usage.
Just why you need to prepare for it.
see:
http://www.smogon.com/bw/articles/bw_ou_threatlist
Theres already the obvious
Offense
Youki
Mimi-Chan
Adv Reisen
Technical Toyohime
Defense
Aya
Star Sapphire
Helper Star Sapphire
Helper Eirin
Defense Daiyousei
Defense Kaguya
Defense Tenshi
Konngara
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Not really. Any thread we have will become outdated very quickly. (Or at least I'll do my damnedest to make it so)
We're really only set for derp252/252 sweepers and walls at the moment.
We're still pretty horrifically short on
Tricky utility things: Sub/Disable/Split/Seed/Status/Etc, Stallbreakers, leads, antileads, spinblockers, spinners, spikers, clerics, lures, fast passers
Bulky attackers in general: Speed creeping or just EVing these can be a bitch
Mixed attackers: Same as the above but even more annoying
Mixed Walls/Fast Walls: Annoying as Hell to EV but a metagame staple
Once threads are up for all these things and we can vanquish the great beast known as Idle Zone we can probably establish a dedicated meta through useage.
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define bulky attacker better
The only thing I can think of is Curse Sendai and Toyos in general and even then for things with bulk they don't really stick around too long
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If the community is going to put something like this together, then I suggest studying the usage stats prior to the recent Uber tier creation. I have it bookmarked on my main computer at home, but Doesnt probably has the link to it as well.
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define bulky attacker better
The only thing I can think of is Curse Sendai and Toyos in general and even then for things with bulk they don't really stick around too long
Sara is pretty much bulky offense incarnate.
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go back to bed
No, I don't really think so...
IMHO there is a major problem with your proposition.
Define OU.
The current OU is based only on usage stats, which honestly aren't the most significant factor ever. In terms of usability, the tier will only expand and expand. There are many mons largely untested; as such, it is impossible to tell whether they work or not by only looking at their pages and imagining sets, or before trying every possible option without having a "this mon is bad why am i doing this" mentality.
As such, it is not well-defined enough, simply because there's still a lot to do.
We're really only set for derp252/252 sweepers and walls at the moment.
We're still pretty horrifically short on
Tricky utility things: Sub/Disable/Split/Seed/Status/Etc, Stallbreakers, leads, antileads, spinblockers, spinners, spikers, clerics, lures, fast passers
Bulky attackers in general: Speed creeping or just EVing these can be a bitch
Mixed attackers: Same as the above but even more annoying
Mixed Walls/Fast Walls: Annoying as Hell to EV but a metagame staple
Once threads are up for all these things and we can vanquish the great beast known as Idle Zone we can probably establish a dedicated meta through useage.
This should probably be our current priority. There's not much point in trying to make a threatlist right now, and even when we do have a meta, mon categories probably come first (because teambuilding).
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speed medicine
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The only real Subseeder user we have right now is SMedicine... that counts as "horrifically short on". The same goes for mixed attackers, mixed walls (Yoshika and Lily White, that's it) and fast walls (uh, Aya?).
We do have some bulky attackers; rather than not having any, it's more like there are TOO MANY that we have no idea of how to use. Just look at half of the attack forms...
There are also too many puppets who only ever get use in one specific form. I've yet to see any Attack or Tech Medicines; that, and I only saw vanilla Medicine once, and the role she was playing in could've been done better by SMedicine, which means there probably wasn't much thought put into it.
Also, the general opinion about ~70% of the PC-98 characters is that they either suck, are completely outclassed or are just too hard to use/not worth the trouble. There are notable exceptions, like Konn, Mima, Sara, Magic Stones and Elis, but the fact stands that many of those characters are still completely unknown.
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Define OU.
The Standard tier everyone plays in that isn't Ubers and isn't UU more like QQ tier
!?!?!
The point of making one is pretty much so newbies or anyone can have a reference of what to be ready for in team building.
You can't tell me that there AREN'T Adv Reisens, Tech Toyos, and Attack Suwakos running about
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Okay, then let's just make a basic one for now :<
I don't think speed variations should be included though, other than stuff like Tailwind and AMurasa/AMinoriko. Not right now, at least.
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Okay, then let's just make a basic one for now :<
I don't think speed variations should be included though, other than stuff like Tailwind and AMurasa/AMinoriko. Not right now, at least.
AMinoriko runs 55 base modest. She's not out speeding the competition even with speed creeping and loses waaay too much power with timid.
Base 90 tailwinder/salac abusers are in the same boat
Speed creeping/shaving seems to be centered around the games bulky attackers, tricky things, and walls.
On the note of PC-98... Dude, most of these chars are pretty solidly OU. I think the grand list of "bad" PC-98 chars is...gengetsu, yuugenmagan, ellen, mai, mima, orange. (mai only makes the list cause outclassed.)
Edit: Ya, there's way too many really stupidly strong things that are currently unused, unstable meta is hella unstable.
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Going to leave the Doc alone for a week so folks can edit. After that will make suggested changes and finalize placement as well as do write ups and finalize the tiering requirements.
After that we'll pretty much do a voting game on tiering based on set reqs and majority rules. 1 week limit there too.
Then its just set spam till we can link em all to doc (@_@) and I'll be free to never ever contribute a useful thing again!
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Because something broke
I had to rollback to a back-up with pre-doesnty edits so for better documentation.
Please post any changes or adds you would do to the doc here
Or better yet mirror what changes you have added
rhetco pls what happened
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Most of my gripes where due to how things were tiered more than what was actually on the list though
Anyway the big things:
Lyrica fits better in support IMO, without type advantage hits her attacks are rather weak with timid 90 SAtk- her job is providing reliable coverage, not strongarming stuff
I'm kinda sad Futo isn't on here when Attack Sanae is but oh well
Might be worth commenting on why Speed Utsuho isn't there at all but she's meh anyway so eh
Speed Wriggle is a thing
Regular Cirno is too
Drop Defense Byakuren and Kikuri IMO, they do pretty much exactly the same thing as Magic Stones with less versatility
Genji is pretty meh, lack of Baton Pass and Wish makes it inferior as a pivot compared to Ruukoto
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I don't know if I agree with Futo not being there either. [Torrent Aqua Jets or Flash Fire things are pretty scary]
Don't get how Lyrica is supporting when she's there to attack
I mean memento maybe but really?
I feel like Kikuri has an edge over Dbyakuren because spikes immunity [levitate], I have never seen DByaks ever so I wouldn't mind her being removed.
Speed Wriggles and Cirno are pretty powerful yeah I think I originally had cirno until josh cut it top 50 only [which I'm still not sure about...]
Genji can keep himself healthy but I agree that he's a bit underwhelming. Amnesia Toxic-Stall Genji is a bit irritating but....
edit: nvm at lyrica I'm dumb I forgot about suicide spiker
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Futo's solid but imo her main utility is a physical Faith/Water typing that allows her to check or counter a lot of otherwise horrific things. Her raw power (Even banded) is pretty underwhelming compared to ASanae and she cant bulk like D Suwako. She may make it back though cause torrent priority.
Lyrica has a really nice support move pool with stuff likes spikes status and even phasing, may try to shift her over.
Kikuri/DByakuren/Gengi made the def list simply because we actually struggled to find 50 viable defensive mons. They're an easy cut if anyone can suggest 3 better mons that we haven't used (I guess D Minoriko?)
S Wrigs and Cirno got the cut because they're just really nonthreatening if your prepared for the other mons on the list. S Wrigs may make it back however she's a bit lower on my personal borderline list than things like Luna Child.
My personal "on the list but borderline" things are uh, A Rin, AUtsuho, Hatate, Nitori, S Koishi, S Yorihime, Kikuri, D Byakuren Ad letty, and HSakuya
My "could fit back into the list but borderline" things are, A Luna Child (Support), Futo (offensive), (A)Ran (Offensive), Kana (Defensive), Kazami (support), Koishi (Defensive), D Minoriko (Defensive), Shinki (Defensive), S Wriggle (Offensive), and Tensoku (Defensive)
(Gonna catch flak for a few of these)
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For now the only mon that made it back to the list was Speed Wriggle (Cut S Yorihime for her over S Koishi because shai would murder me if there were less hats on the list)
Anyways the tier reqs as stolen from smogon tiering threads
Threat Index:
A Rank: Reserved for puppets who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and puppets who can support other Puppets with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of puppets who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the puppets in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
B Rank: Reserved for puppets who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting puppets in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.
C Rank: Reserved for puppets who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support puppets in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. puppets who are partially outclassed by a puppet in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
List what mons you feel into what tiers based on this and shit in this thread, will either go by majority rules (If we get enough people to actually give 2 shits) or I'll just bullshit it.
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Here have a few obvious things:
attack flandre, speed flandre, and youki for a rank (where'd s rank go?) for very obvious reasons
Akyuu for B rank- she's sturdy enough to come in on moderate special hits and forcibly incapacitate things, but is very hard to get in against offensive pressure and struggles against lum/sub users
Defense Kaguya for B rank. She never dies (even STAB physical miasma moves need significant kick to cleanly kill if she's defensively invested), has recover and natural cure to stay in the game, hits hard enough to prevent things from just setting up on her, and can even mess up defensive teams with fast taunts. Miasma does force her out though if it's coming from something decently beefy and specially tanky stuff can absorb her hits and advance the game better.
Momiji for B rank- while she is basically mini-salamence with 120 BP STAB Bravers and Dragon Dance, the rise of Rin usage gives her a rough time. Defense Kaguya and Star also act as full stops to her which mandates Miasma team-mates.
Aya for B rank- she's basically fast Forretress with Recover that can also run offense, though both sets have their issues (full hazards is prone to strong attacks/set-up while offense is underwhelming).
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SYorihime is probably more solid than Skoishi now that weather sweepers are becoming less common but whatever.
zFairy is obviously C class, Steels, Flying and Miasma are too common for her to be higher, but being able to phase just by being there is pretty powerful on mana/heart/dream people and the like
if AFlan is A-Rank Material, I feel like DAlice can go though too [Both are moderately sturdy and hit hard from their side of the phys/spec spectrum, RNG is an issue for both of them due to Inaccuracy]
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SYorihime is probably more solid than Skoishi now that weather sweepers are becoming less common but whatever.
She'll probably get plugged back in over S Koishi
zFairy is obviously C class, Steels, Flying and Miasma are too common for her to be higher, but being able to phase just by being there is pretty powerful on mana/heart/dream people and the like
if AFlan is A-Rank Material, I feel like DAlice can go though too [Both are moderately sturdy and hit hard from their side of the phys/spec spectrum, RNG is an issue for both of them due to Inaccuracy]
A Flan is made of broken glass falling off of a tall building
Was hoping for full lists but w/e I'll sub in S Yorihime tonight and do a quick preliminary tiering
Edit: SYorihime is back, preliminary ratings are done once shai adds the 3 missing mons to def list properly >_>. Feel free to go through and figure out whats in the wrong tier.
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You did it in the wrong file I think
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13fXIZZhbvNRB5D85pjXbT4A9Aqgrs0JFTLd3oqysK_0/edit
is the one
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Ya did it in the wrong god damn one