Author Topic: Suspect List Topic  (Read 3513 times)

Offline Aphid

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Suspect List Topic
« on: January 05, 2015, 11:59:06 AM »
This is a list of puppets that seem really powerful, to the point where every team needs to dedicate their strategy to beating them, or which might have a very undesirable effect on the game by existing (Moody comes to mind). When/if stuff is being investigated, perhaps interesting to look here first. As moveset information is not fully available yet this should be taken as a tentative list, additional puppets are to be added and removed as more information becomes available and playtest data is gathered. In most cases, it seems that the 'ability' of the puppet is the thing that is most worrisome, there are a few really good ones.

Nimble

Nimble as an ability doubles a statistic. Doubling a statistic is the same as adding a whole lot of BST to your puppet, effectively 50 plus the value of the stat being doubled.

Power Sakuya

Nimble gives her effective 635 BST, but she can't carry items. She outspeeds almost anything, the exceptions being weather puppets, Yamame, and her own Speed variant, and has an excellent 135 base ATK (only 8 puppets have higher attack). Also has a good movepool, with several coverage options, and of course access to stat-enhancement to top it all off.

Power Yamame

Moody

Moody raises stats by +1 each turn. Since the stat being raised is random, it could be evasion. If it is evasion, Moody can cause a lot of trouble, becoming a truly unrivalled stalling ability. It is present on 5 puppets. Especially Suwako, Kokoro, and Komachi seem dangerous users.

Speed Suwako
Power Komachi
Defense Kokoro
Defense Kotohime
Assist Kosuzu

Up Tempo

The TPDP equivalent of Speed Boost, this ability instantly landed Blaziken into Ubers when added to it. Speed Boost was previously only attainable by the very fragile and otherwise quite useless Ninjask, which ended up being a popular lead anyway because of it. Anything with access to speed boost and especially also Backup Plan is automatically suspect. This ability is present on 6 puppets. Notice how 4 of these are power forms which have high damage output. These are dangerous in particular when they have access to attack boosts and/or backup plan:

Speed Miko
Power Rin
Power Kana
Power Cirno
Power Mystia
Assist Merlin

Boundary Blurrer / Power Mary

Present only on Power Mary, Boundary Blurrer doubles 4 statistics in all weather conditions, giving her a 675 effective BST in weather. If weather happens to be somewhat prevalent, Mary might be 'too good', her power is comparable to that of legends in Pokemon. Her Illusion typing gives her only 2 weaknesses, one of which is her own type.

Assist Satori

She is basically Wobbuffet. She can pretty much wall and lock a very high percentage of the puppets, generally getting a 2-1 trade.

Vanishing Act

If Evasion Clause is standardized, Vanishing Act might be criticized as well. Note that it is only present on four puppets, none of which are actually defensive by nature.

Power Remilia
Speed Remilia
Power Wriggle
Assist Wriggle

Divine Protection

Divine Protection is another interesting ability with a lot of potential. Many stat-boosting moves exist that also lower another stat because they would be unfair otherwise. This ability also synergises with Moody.There is only one user.

Speed Sanae


High Stats

While stats are less variable than they are in pokemon, the puppets do vary in stat total from about 450 (barring a few exceptions with abilities to counteract it) to 600.

Shinki

Both Power and Speed Shinki have a BST of 600, which is the third highest in the game. (Two puppets have a BST of 630, but they have a crippling ability that will probably prevent them from ever seeing much play in either case.). Furthermore, All-Weather and Dark Clothing are both interesting abilities.

Fast and powerful

Puppets have a rather unique combination of very high speed and very high attack. Most other puppets with 120+ attack are slow. Depending on the movesets available, they might cause overcentralization. A comparable pokemon would be Garchomp.

Speed Tojiko
Speed Gengetsu
Speed Yorihime

Edits:

1) Updated Satori's Information to reflect struggle war fix.
2) Removed Divine Protection from suspect list -- If it only functions for the user, it is far less unfair. Can someone else confirm these findings too?

« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 08:11:49 PM by Aphid »

Offline Cyndaqwil

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Re: Suspect List Topic
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2015, 12:40:24 PM »
I'd just like to point out that Nimble seems to function exactly the same as Unburden as far as I can tell, so Sakuya has to use the item or lose it as using no item at all won't activate the boost.

Offline Agastya

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Re: Suspect List Topic
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2015, 12:47:27 PM »
We should probably not try to edgar clause ourselves this early in.

I'd just like to point out that Nimble seems to function exactly the same as Unburden as far as I can tell, so Sakuya has to use the item or lose it as using no item at all won't activate the boost.
We have type gems, so she could easily just fire off a powerful gem-boosted move to get the boost.
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Offline Cyndaqwil

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Re: Suspect List Topic
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2015, 12:55:50 PM »
I'd just like to point out that Nimble seems to function exactly the same as Unburden as far as I can tell, so Sakuya has to use the item or lose it as using no item at all won't activate the boost.
We have type gems, so she could easily just fire off a powerful gem-boosted move to get the boost.
That's very true. Is it known if the gems boost power by 30% like Gen VI or the old 50%?

Also in reference to Speed Sanae's Divine Protection: it seems to function like Clear Body just for the user rather than the entire party, despite the ability description. I tested it with Moody and stat lowering moves like Cross Drive and they still lowered stats.

Offline Freudia

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Re: Suspect List Topic
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2015, 01:53:14 PM »
Boundary Blurrer / Power Mary

Present only on Power Mary, Boundary Blurrer doubles 4 statistics in all weather conditions, giving her a 675 effective BST in weather. If weather happens to be somewhat prevalent, Mary might be 'too good', her power is comparable to that of legends in Pokemon. Her Illusion typing gives her only 2 weaknesses, one of which is her own type.

Doubt this is going to be banned. This game gives you a few means to kill weather outright (Macroburst kills Fog and Calm, TM25 destroys all weather and does double damage for doing so, for example), and you're liable to be running these in some fashion anyways, just because weather compositions even without Mary get dumped on by them, and Macroburst is a good attack even without Fog or Calm being in play.

Quote
Speed Tojiko

Tojiko hits hard but has a very shallow movepool; you get two recoil attacks, two terrain/weather destroyers, both switch-out moves and Facade. All of those are only four types total, one of which is void, and while Facade is very scary given her ability set (Moxie and Toxic Boost), I don't think that alone is going to let her become too strong for the game. Can keep an eye on her, but I don't see her doing more than the occasional clean-up job given that SSuwako and DToyohime wall her outright.

Offline Troyead

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Re: Suspect List Topic
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2015, 03:35:15 PM »
Hello,

I was wondering if it made sense if we'd put together a simulator like showdown for testing metagame things. I'd be a lot more convenient than reincarnating all the puppets, getting all TMs etc. ingame.

Of course this is more an idea for the future, but I think we could discuss it already at least.

Offline DuckiePlucky

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Re: Suspect List Topic
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2015, 05:21:19 PM »
I only have Speed Tojiko and Miko and yes I can say Tojiko in speed style is fast, HOWEVER she's a bit like a glass cannon.

For Speed Miko... she seems more balanced due to the way I have her IVs setup to be balanced. That's my two cents.
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Offline Juno

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Re: Suspect List Topic
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2015, 06:17:22 PM »
Personally tested Power Rin. Whatever she doesn't kill is near guaranteed to kill her. 80/50/50 and 5 weaknesses(Light, Dark, Nether, Water, Earth). Considering that there is a lot of bulky puppets (holy **** Power Letty tanking the E4), she shouldn't be too bad.

Offline Doesnt

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Re: Suspect List Topic
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2015, 06:47:37 PM »
I did some testing; Shadow Stitch users can't trap themselves, and Struggle does 25% of the user's max HP in recoil. There is no need to quickban Assist Satori.
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Offline Aphid

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Re: Suspect List Topic
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2015, 08:42:59 PM »
I sincerely hope that the amount of restrictions that need to be placed on the game is minimal, in an ideal case, none, for a good battling environment. Indeed literally almost every puppet in this game has some sort of 'unfairness' built into it, something that allows that puppet to break the rules as it were and soak up more damage, deal more damage, be faster, and so on than a puppet would usually be in some circumstance. It is not really a question of whether something can get an advantage in some situation, but rather the following more 'meta'-oriented questions:

1) Is the unfairness pronounced enough?
2) Is the amount of resources required to allocate to the strategy low?
3) Does the one gimmick require highly specific counter strategy from the opponent?
4) Is the unfairness rather unique and come from one ability, puppet, move, etc. combination?
5) Would the competitive game, with this one thing removed, actually become more diverse instead of less diverse?

If the answer to most of these questions is 'yes', that puppet, move, whatever is something suspect.

Some explanation of the finer points:
2) Some strategies will obviously net you benefits, such as a weather team or a baton pass team. The thing is such a team will be less equipped to deal with general threats because the large amount of requirements to execute the strategy, and thus such a strategy netting greater returns in return would be a fine gambit to take, even necessary for such a specific thing to be a viable strategy. When something that has comparable benefits yet comes from far less investment appears is where the danger lies.
3) For example, let's take that specific move that cancels weather and gets more power from it. Would the mere existence of Mary force a move slot to be such-and-such move on teams without her or be uncompetitive? This seems rather restrictive.
4) Here's a good example. There's abilities for each type that turn void moves into that type, at 130% base power. As return is a 100 power move, access to a 130 BP 100% accuracy STAB move is widespread in the puppet pool (but you do trade up your ability slot to do so). In the older Touhoumon games 'good' base power is closer to 90, so Yumeko's ability to basically have 125 BP moves seems unfair, until you realize that it's actually not that much anymore.

Side note: If there's anything I've noticed playing through the game it's this. Came to me as something of a shock, as I'd been running through the game with 60-80 base power on most of the types I had as the highest most of the time, thinking that was actually as 'good as it's going to get'. It seemed to do okay damage, but you can tell I was a bit surprised by finding out it's this much more about offense. Bit disappointed to be honest, as the wide array of support moves might see little use and we just get attack move or switch all the time. I guess when my full defense Yuyuko started to get oneshot by x2 effective things was when I noticed my opponents might be using some stuff with more 'oomph' to it (which I got later on, but was then hidden under roses and in caves and whatnot in skill cards that are hard to find)

5) This actually is the best criterion by far. E.g. take original pokemon. Start competitive battling. First thing you notice: 99% of good teams run Mewtwo, other psychic types see very little use, except for Mr. Mime. Remove Mewtwo, and you see usage of Alakazam, Gengar, and Hypno (in order of popularity) happen. In a very simple sense, the amount of actual 'options' afforded to the players is increased, and each has its pros and cons, it enriches the game. In the very other extreme, if we removed everything except Magikarp (because everything else is so much better than it), this would drastically 'reduce' the diversity, we removed too much. Not removing mewtwo, we definitely removed 'too little'.

Please go ahead and experiment, see if you can come up with some crazy shenanigans that are really hard to deal with properly.

Offline Agastya

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Re: Suspect List Topic
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2015, 11:18:37 PM »
okay here's the deal i dont feel like making this post look good so too bad

there is no meta right now

there will not be a meta until:

  • a lot more people have beaten the game
  • we have the wiki fleshed out
  • everything is properly translated and not google translated misinformation

if/when a meta forms likely the only things that are going to happen are a moody/evasion quickban on an honor system, and even then i dont recommend it because i dont want us to be going by one sort of banlist while the jp players are going by an entirely different one


yes you can look at something and be like man this thing is strong! but just removing it outright is not a solution as then you enter the fun loop of "x broken thing is removed, lets move on to y broken thing because now x doesnt keep it in line"

this is how a metagame forms.
a game forms within the game.
hence the term metagame.

a broken thing comes up. we find something that, in that context, is powerful enough to stop it. we get tired of seeing that so we start countering that. maybe we loop back around to the first thing.

but we learn. we learn what is and isnt powerful. the metagame changes. it evolves.

basically: ride this shit out. its far too early for a suspect thread. far far too early. we are very likely never going to even have usage statistics for this because we are not going to make a simulator for it as it already has networking functionality built in and it takes no time at all to get 5iv in relevant stats with reincarnation, and its just a matter of handling yukis wild ride to 70


the only thing i recommend is we should do for a meta standpoint is to standardize with using the lv50 rulesets as it cuts down on the time spent on yukis wild ride considerably (only needing to grind to 70 for the last move, if you even use it) and we can ev for lv50 from the status screen now so you wont have to do any guesswork

christ fuck this post is a mess wahtever im posting it now
[6:30:51] DoctorShanks: Is Star Sapphire actually good or do people just use her because she's cute? Or both?
[6:30:55] Irisorchid: both
[6:30:57] &Agastya: both
[6:30:59] PrinnyAce: BOTH