Author Topic: Terminology  (Read 7315 times)

Offline Elyk

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Terminology
« on: January 01, 2015, 04:29:34 PM »
人形 - Puppet - The things that fight for you in battle.

スタイル - Style - The form that your puppet can take (Normal, Power, Defense, Speed, Assist)
属性 - Type - The elements of puppets and skills. For example Keine is a Steel-type puppet. Mud Ball is an Earth-type skill.
印 - Mark - Analogous to Natures in Pokemon.

集弾 - Focus Attack (FoAtk) - Analogous to Pokemon's Attack stat
集防 - Focus Defense (FoDef) -  Analogous to Pokemon's Defense stat
散弾 - Spread Attack (SpAtk) -  Analogous to Pokemon's Special Attack stat
散防 - Spread Defense (SpDef) - Analogous to Pokemon's Special Defense stat
俊敏 - Speed (Spd) - Analogous to Pokemon's Speed stat

スキル - Skill - Analogous to "Moves" in Pokemon. This is what your puppet uses to attack.
アビリティー - Ability - Same thing as ability in Pokemon.

痛烈な一撃 - Critical Hit (lit. Crushing Blow) - Critical Hit is more widely used by everything so we're using that here.

Skill Effectiveness -
I don't have the Japanese for it on hand but I might add it in later. Basically each Puppet has a barrier around it. The barrier is what resists different type skills. For example Daiyousei is Nature-type. Her barrier resists attacks that are Water-type. Skills that are Fire-type penetrate her barrier and deal more damage. If you see something in game referring to barrier penetration that is the same as super effectiveness in Pokemon. It isn't talking about poking a hole in Lightscreen.
Use Barrier Piercing for Super Effective and Barrier Resisting for Resistant.


More stuff will be added later. As usual these things are up for argument/discussion.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 05:51:26 PM by Elyk »

Offline Tyraxx

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Re: Terminology
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2015, 06:00:31 PM »
属性 - Type - The elements of puppets and skills. For example Keine is a Steel-type puppet. Mud Ball is an Earth-type skill.
印 - Mark - Analogous to Natures in Pokemon.
散弾 - Spread Attack (SpAtk) -  Analogous to Pokemon's Special Attack stat
散防 - Spread Defense (SpDef) - Analogous to Pokemon's Special Defense stat
I always used to translate 属性 as "attribute", though type would also be OK, and probably will more likely to fit character-wise.
I'd translate 印 as "sign", it sounds more "magical-like" rather then "mark", imo.

The SpAtk/SpDef is OK, when reading the abrv. one will think it means "special" instead of "spread", maybe using another word like "scatter"? But that's just an idea.

To "Skill effectiveness" what do you need the mssg that appears when it occures, or do you need a tranlation?

But everything else looks good for me.


Offline Agastya

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Re: Terminology
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2015, 06:22:02 PM »
I think spread abbreviating to "sp" is fine since it's ultimately the "special" attack stat anyway.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 12:53:43 PM by Agastya »
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Offline Kinsei

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Re: Terminology
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2015, 12:00:47 PM »
I must admit that whenever I saw the critical hit text, I read it in the old Pokemon Stadium announcer's voice (A savage blow!), but critical hit works for me.

I'm fine with the other translations except, like Tyraxx, Mark. I just don't really like the sound of it, honestly. I think Tyraxx's suggestion of Sign works well, as it has other connotations beside the obvious and literal.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 01:41:06 PM by Kinsei »

Offline Lolisauce

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Re: Terminology
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2015, 08:27:05 PM »
So, I realize I'm late to the party, (and I'm basing this comment on what's on the eng wiki right now) but why do the types "Warrior" and "Nether" exist, as opposed to just rolling with more familiar "Fighting" and "Ghost" type names?  In both cases, they're the referring to the same thing.  Why needlessly change them to something more awkward than it needs to be?

Offline DerxwnaKapsyla

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Re: Terminology
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2015, 05:03:38 AM »
Because that is what they literally say, according to demo translation.
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Offline Lolisauce

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Re: Terminology
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2015, 06:23:35 AM »
Just as a point of note, my prior post was made knowing the JP terms and understanding their meanings.  At the risk of seeming like I'm just an over-entitled ignoramus, here's a detailed post explaining why I think the type names should be changed.


闘 (currently Warrior type)  Dictionary definition: Fight, War.  Functionally: Used specifically in reference to hand-to-hand combat.

It's completely interchangeable to call it Warrior or Fighting, therefore I argue that staying with Fighting as the type name would be more sensible.  That's what they use in Pokemon, that's what was used in the previous Touhoumon translations, and ultimately it's the same type we're familiar with.  Keep it simple, right?


冥 (currently Nether type)  Dictionary definition: Dark.  Functionally: Although this kanji is often used in words relating to the netherworld (冥土, 冥途, 冥界 for example), the kanji by itself refers to "dark" in the sense of gloominess.  This isn't to be confused with the actual Dark type (闇) which is appropriately more akin to actual blackness or shady actions.

If you were going to literally translate this, the closest thing would probably be Gloom (which sounds like shit), but I argue that Ghost type is the most sensible name in the context of its use in the game.  It's clear when looking at the skills and abilities that it's referring to ghosts, not to mention the puppets who share the type (Mima, the poltergeist trio, Youmu, Yuyuko, etc) are ghosts.  Like Fighting argument above, it's sensible, simple, and familiar.


So that's why I suggested the name changes in the first place.  That said, is there anything that I'm missing out on that would support sticking with Warrior/Nether as opposed to changing to Fighting/Ghost?  (Other than simple laziness at changing everything at this point, cuz I'm fine with doing that kind of busywork.)

Offline FlareKyn

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Re: Terminology
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2015, 11:59:32 AM »
With Pokemon, Evil was changed to Dark because localization.

However, as one of the translators for this game said, they're just translating, not localizing.  So they're only gonna change it if the translation itself makes no sense, which isn't the case with Warrior and Nether types.

Offline Doesnt

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Re: Terminology
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2015, 03:30:33 PM »
Nether also includes a large number of gloomy things that aren't ghosts or even undead, such as Magan, Komachi, Eiki, Hina, Rin, Kasen, and Sekibanki. It's also the case that even characters who have very strong claims to being Ghosts, such as Murasa, do not always have the typing even if it leaves them with only one type.

I don't have very strong arguments for Warrior, but considering the setting and the fact that it contains sword-based moves I don't see any reason to change it. Furthermore, most of the game does *not* use Pokemon terms for convenience; I feel we should do the same unless the translation doesn't make sense.
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Offline Lolisauce

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Re: Terminology
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2015, 12:36:00 AM »
Nether also includes a large number of gloomy things that aren't ghosts or even undead, such as Magan, Komachi, Eiki, Hina, Rin, Kasen, and Sekibanki. It's also the case that even characters who have very strong claims to being Ghosts, such as Murasa, do not always have the typing even if it leaves them with only one type.
I can respect that argument against ghost, but doesn't it also apply to nether if there's ones that don't have any relation to the netherworld or the dead themselves?  Feels like I'm being hit with some double standards, you know?

Anyway, after thinking about the arguments against it, it feels like the name changes are just a preference thing between two acceptable options.  If that's the case, there isn't much I can say beyond what I already have.  I still feel like Fighting/Ghost are preferable due to what they were in the Touhoumon games that this is the spiritual successor to, but I can always make my own adjustments to translations here or there after full release if the majority are against it.  At the least, thanks for hearing me out.

Offline FlareKyn

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Re: Terminology
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2015, 01:50:29 AM »
Good luck extracting the files then.

The translation will be done over a patcher.

Offline Lolisauce

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Re: Terminology
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2015, 05:23:23 AM »
Thanks for the heads up.  I'll talk with the guys about it after they finish.

Edit:
I was talking with a friend about this and he brought up a good point for the Fighting vs Warrior debate.  By dictionary definition, a warrior is someone involved in warfare, aka a soldier.  A fighter, in comparison, is either a puglist or someone involved with fighting in general.

Would you really argue that the appropriate puppets with this type are more accurately described as soldiers in war or just people adept at fighting?  I dunno about you, but there's no way I could see most of them as a disciplined soldier of war.

In that same vein, we realized that Nether actually just means underground or "lower" in general terms.  Is an analog to "underground" really more appropriate than Ghost, which all but two or three puppets of the type have a direct connection with? 

I feel like this takes it beyond just connotation and preference, and make it a direct matter of the current type names being partially incorrect to begin with.  What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 04:20:17 AM by Lolisauce »

Offline Yellow13

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Re: Terminology
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2015, 08:11:02 AM »
I agree that Fighting types will be the more suitable translation for 闘 compared to Warrior. The kanji 闘 when used in Chinese have a meaning that leans more towards a fight or a brawl instead of war, so i think Fighting type will be the more appropriate translation. Btw Chinese is my mother tongue and kanjis usually are traditional Chinese characters and have similar if not the same meaning.
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Offline ZXNova

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Re: Terminology
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2015, 06:44:13 AM »
Nether also includes a large number of gloomy things that aren't ghosts or even undead, such as Magan, Komachi, Eiki, Hina, Rin, Kasen, and Sekibanki. It's also the case that even characters who have very strong claims to being Ghosts, such as Murasa, do not always have the typing even if it leaves them with only one type.
I can respect that argument against ghost, but doesn't it also apply to nether if there's ones that don't have any relation to the netherworld or the dead themselves?  Feels like I'm being hit with some double standards, you know?

Anyway, after thinking about the arguments against it, it feels like the name changes are just a preference thing between two acceptable options.  If that's the case, there isn't much I can say beyond what I already have.  I still feel like Fighting/Ghost are preferable due to what they were in the Touhoumon games that this is the spiritual successor to, but I can always make my own adjustments to translations here or there after full release if the majority are against it.  At the least, thanks for hearing me out.

There's no reason to call a nether puppet 'ghost' because not every nether type is a ghost. It'd be difference if the Japanese type name was 幽霊 or お化け, but it isn't.

Hina - She is a 厄神 (Yakujin) which translates to Misfortune God, Disaster God, Calamity God, or a god that spreads pestilence. Since there is no Miasma type in this game, the closest thing to Miasma would be Nether/Poison. Miasma is generally associated with death. It is a bad, poisonous air that was believed to causesdeadly diseases such as black death. To go further, in Miasma theory, it was believed that this poisonous mist was filled with miasmata, or decomposed matter. Hina is a Yakujin that gathers everyone's misfortunes in nagashi-bina. In Japan there is this festival called Hinamatsuri, on which this day people send nagashi-bina dolls down a river to gather the disasters that can befall children. And in old days, people believed in miasma. In which case, one of many disasters that would befall children was sicknesses, from which 'miasma' is the cause. This is why Hina is a miasma type in TPP 1.8. Also note the fourth translation of Yakujin which is 'a god that spreads pestilence'. But as I said before, there is no miasma type in TPDP, so the closest thing is Nether/Poison.

Magan - Well Magan is found in Makai and there's lots of miasma there.

Kasen - Likely due to her ability to remove souls from the cycle of life and death entirely with her artificial arm. And her arm is also technically dead, I guess. Tbh, I don't think she should be Warrior/Nether. Though, I haven't read Wild and Horned Hermit yet, so I should really do that.

Alas, Hemo did these typings so you should really complain to him.

Offline catmusica

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Re: Terminology
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2015, 03:50:50 AM »
Tbh I think that whatever the translation is should stay. I personally dont mind and love the new types rather than the old pokemon types and I think it would be a great experience to learn the new system.I would just do whatever the translation says but since i'm not translating it you have the option to do whatever you would like with it. I was just giving my thought on the subject