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Author Topic: OU/Standard Threatlist WIP [Open for editing]  (Read 5814 times)

Offline shai_LP

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OU/Standard Threatlist WIP [Open for editing]
« on: August 24, 2013, 09:31:16 AM »
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13fXIZZhbvNRB5D85pjXbT4A9Aqgrs0JFTLd3oqysK_0/edit

Theres a back-up of this but I'd still appreciate if no one kills the formatting.
[When adding a link over a name please keep the color formatting]

Text Only No Explanations List

Ok due to the slowly growing community of shoddy I'd say a threat list is almost needed as a semi replacement for standard suspects. This is pretty much my attempt to remove as much personal bias as possible before doing real work because I'm bad at objective.

Anyways due to the insane amount of viable mons the goal was to narrow it down to top 50 attack/Def top 20 support without overlapping. Before I actually go and finish this thing off (Props to Shai for doing all the real work so far) heres the big list.

If you feel anything has been missed, missplaced, or over rated feel free to list what and the reasons why.

Offensive:
Code: [Select]
AdCirno
AdMarisa
AdMokou
AdReisen
AKayuga
AKiene
AKoishi
ALilyBlack
AMinoriko
AMurasa
APatchouli
AReimu
ARemilia
ARin
ASanae
AShou
AStar
ASuwako
ATenshi
AUtsuho
Chen
Dark Alice
(A/S)Flandre
Hatate
Ichirin
Kasen
Lyrica
Miko
Mimi-chan
Momiji
Nitori
Rikako
Satori
Seiga
Shingyoku-O
SLilyBlack
SKoishi
SMarisa
SRin
SSariel
SYorihime
SYoumu
TAya
TByakuren
TToyohime
Wriggle
Yorihime
Youki
Yumeko
Yumemi
Defensive:
Code: [Select]
DMeiling
Medicine
DSuwako
AdAlice
Admeiling
AkiSisters
Alice
Aya
Chiyuri
DDaiyousei
DHatate
DByakuren
DHina
DIchirin
DKayuga
DKeiine
DLayla
DLetty
DMokou
DTenshi
DTewi
DYuyuko
Gengi
HEirin
HKieine
HShizuha
HStarSaphire
Kayuga
Kikuri
Kisume
Konngara
LilyWhite
Louize
Magic Stones
Murasa
Namazu
Nue
Rin
Rumia
Ruukoto
Sara
Sariel
Shingyoku-F
Shingyoku-M
Star Saphire
Suika
TSanae
Yamame
Yoshika
Yuuka

Support:
Code: [Select]
ATewi
Shizuha
HKoakuma
HLunasa
THatate
HNazrin
HSakuya
Kotohime
LilyBlak
Sakuya
SKogasa
SMedicine
SKomachi
SYamame
TYuuka
Mamizou
Mugetsu
ZFairy



Quote
Old OP: Doesn't even need to go in-depth to a thing's usage.

Just why you need to prepare for it.

see:
http://www.smogon.com/bw/articles/bw_ou_threatlist

Theres already the obvious

Offense
Youki
Mimi-Chan
Adv Reisen
Technical Toyohime

Defense
Aya
Star Sapphire
Helper Star Sapphire
Helper Eirin
Defense Daiyousei
Defense Kaguya
Defense Tenshi
Konngara
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 04:40:59 AM by shai_LP »

Offline joshcja

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Re: Have we ran the Meta enough to have an OU Threatlist by now?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2013, 09:50:17 AM »
Not really. Any thread we have will become outdated very quickly. (Or at least I'll do my damnedest to make it so)

We're really only set for derp252/252 sweepers and walls at the moment.

We're still pretty horrifically short on

Tricky utility things: Sub/Disable/Split/Seed/Status/Etc, Stallbreakers, leads, antileads, spinblockers, spinners, spikers, clerics, lures, fast passers
Bulky attackers in general: Speed creeping or just EVing these can be a bitch
Mixed attackers: Same as the above but even more annoying
Mixed Walls/Fast Walls: Annoying as Hell to EV but a metagame staple

Once threads are up for all these things and we can vanquish the great beast known as Idle Zone we can probably establish a dedicated meta through useage.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 09:54:41 AM by joshcja »

Offline shai_LP

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Re: Have we ran the Meta enough to have an OU Threatlist by now?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2013, 10:27:18 AM »
define bulky attacker better

The only thing I can think of is Curse Sendai and Toyos in general and even then for things with bulk they don't really stick around too long

Offline DoctorShanks

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Re: Have we ran the Meta enough to have an OU Threatlist by now?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2013, 05:13:53 PM »
If the community is going to put something like this together, then I suggest studying the usage stats prior to the recent Uber tier creation. I have it bookmarked on my main computer at home, but Doesnt probably has the link to it as well.
[8:30:13] DoctorSnacks: Are A/TSanae actually good or do people just use them because they're cute? Or Both?
[8:30:23] SupremeExplosion: Shoddy is a reskinned weenie hut juniors

Offline joshcja

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Re: Have we ran the Meta enough to have an OU Threatlist by now?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2013, 05:30:00 PM »
define bulky attacker better

The only thing I can think of is Curse Sendai and Toyos in general and even then for things with bulk they don't really stick around too long

Sara is pretty much bulky offense incarnate.

Offline Naļ

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Re: Have we ran the Meta enough to have an OU Threatlist by now?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2013, 08:50:45 PM »
go back to bed

No, I don't really think so...
IMHO there is a major problem with your proposition.
Define OU.



The current OU is based only on usage stats, which honestly aren't the most significant factor ever. In terms of usability, the tier will only expand and expand. There are many mons largely untested; as such, it is impossible to tell whether they work or not by only looking at their pages and imagining sets, or before trying every possible option without having a "this mon is bad why am i doing this" mentality.

As such, it is not well-defined enough, simply because there's still a lot to do.

Quote from: Josh
We're really only set for derp252/252 sweepers and walls at the moment.

We're still pretty horrifically short on

Tricky utility things: Sub/Disable/Split/Seed/Status/Etc, Stallbreakers, leads, antileads, spinblockers, spinners, spikers, clerics, lures, fast passers
Bulky attackers in general: Speed creeping or just EVing these can be a bitch
Mixed attackers: Same as the above but even more annoying
Mixed Walls/Fast Walls: Annoying as Hell to EV but a metagame staple

Once threads are up for all these things and we can vanquish the great beast known as Idle Zone we can probably establish a dedicated meta through useage.
This should probably be our current priority. There's not much point in trying to make a threatlist right now, and even when we do have a meta, mon categories probably come first (because teambuilding).

Offline Agastya

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Re: Have we ran the Meta enough to have an OU Threatlist by now?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2013, 09:41:33 PM »
speed medicine
[6:30:51] DoctorShanks: Is Star Sapphire actually good or do people just use her because she's cute? Or both?
[6:30:55] Irisorchid: both
[6:30:57] &Agastya: both
[6:30:59] PrinnyAce: BOTH

Offline Naļ

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Re: Have we ran the Meta enough to have an OU Threatlist by now?
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2013, 12:03:18 AM »
The only real Subseeder user we have right now is SMedicine... that counts as "horrifically short on". The same goes for mixed attackers, mixed walls (Yoshika and Lily White, that's it) and fast walls (uh, Aya?).

We do have some bulky attackers; rather than not having any, it's more like there are TOO MANY that we have no idea of how to use. Just look at half of the attack forms...

There are also too many puppets who only ever get use in one specific form. I've yet to see any Attack or Tech Medicines; that, and I only saw vanilla Medicine once, and the role she was playing in could've been done better by SMedicine, which means there probably wasn't much thought put into it.



Also, the general opinion about ~70% of the PC-98 characters is that they either suck, are completely outclassed or are just too hard to use/not worth the trouble. There are notable exceptions, like Konn, Mima, Sara, Magic Stones and Elis, but the fact stands that many of those characters are still completely unknown.

Offline shai_LP

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Re: Have we ran the Meta enough to have an OU Threatlist by now?
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2013, 12:31:55 AM »

Define OU.

The Standard tier everyone plays in that isn't Ubers and isn't UU more like QQ tier

!?!?!

The point of making one is pretty much so newbies or anyone can have a reference of what to be ready for in team building.

You can't tell me that there AREN'T Adv Reisens, Tech Toyos, and Attack Suwakos running about

Offline Naļ

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Re: Have we ran the Meta enough to have an OU Threatlist by now?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2013, 04:23:30 PM »
Okay, then let's just make a basic one for now :<
I don't think speed variations should be included though, other than stuff like Tailwind and AMurasa/AMinoriko. Not right now, at least.

Offline joshcja

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Re: Have we ran the Meta enough to have an OU Threatlist by now?
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2013, 08:26:01 PM »
Okay, then let's just make a basic one for now :<
I don't think speed variations should be included though, other than stuff like Tailwind and AMurasa/AMinoriko. Not right now, at least.

AMinoriko runs 55 base modest. She's not out speeding the competition even with speed creeping and loses waaay too much power with timid.

Base 90 tailwinder/salac abusers are in the same boat

Speed creeping/shaving seems to be centered around the games bulky attackers, tricky things, and walls.

On the note of PC-98... Dude, most of these chars are pretty solidly OU. I think the grand list of "bad" PC-98 chars is...gengetsu, yuugenmagan, ellen, mai, mima, orange. (mai only makes the list cause outclassed.)

Edit: Ya, there's way too many really stupidly strong things that are currently unused, unstable meta is hella unstable.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 08:53:11 AM by joshcja »

Offline joshcja

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Re: Have we ran the Meta enough to have an OU Threatlist by now?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2013, 11:19:16 PM »
Going to leave the Doc alone for a week so folks can edit. After that will make suggested changes and finalize placement as well as do write ups and finalize the tiering requirements.

After that we'll pretty much do a voting game on tiering based on set reqs and majority rules. 1 week limit there too.

Then its just set spam till we can link em all to doc (@_@) and I'll be free to never ever contribute a useful thing again!
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 02:22:33 AM by joshcja »

Offline shai_LP

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Re: OU/Standard Threatlist WIP [Open for editing]
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2013, 04:42:37 AM »
Because something broke


I had to rollback to a back-up with pre-doesnty edits so for better documentation.

Please post any changes or adds you would do to the doc here

Or better yet mirror what changes you have added


rhetco pls what happened

Offline Doesnt

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Re: OU/Standard Threatlist WIP [Open for editing]
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2013, 03:01:12 PM »
Most of my gripes where due to how things were tiered more than what was actually on the list though

Anyway the big things:

Lyrica fits better in support IMO, without type advantage hits her attacks are rather weak with timid 90 SAtk- her job is providing reliable coverage, not strongarming stuff

I'm kinda sad Futo isn't on here when Attack Sanae is but oh well

Might be worth commenting on why Speed Utsuho isn't there at all but she's meh anyway so eh

Speed Wriggle is a thing

Regular Cirno is too

Drop Defense Byakuren and Kikuri IMO, they do pretty much exactly the same thing as Magic Stones with less versatility

Genji is pretty meh, lack of Baton Pass and Wish makes it inferior as a pivot compared to Ruukoto
i accidentally deleted your avatar so have 90 stars instead ~agastya

Offline shai_LP

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Re: OU/Standard Threatlist WIP [Open for editing]
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2013, 08:22:22 PM »
I don't know if I agree with Futo not being there either. [Torrent Aqua Jets or Flash Fire things are pretty scary]

Don't get how Lyrica is supporting when she's there to attack

I mean memento maybe but really?

I feel like Kikuri has an edge over Dbyakuren because spikes immunity [levitate], I have never seen DByaks ever so I wouldn't mind her being removed.

Speed Wriggles and Cirno are pretty powerful yeah I think I originally had cirno until josh cut it top 50 only [which I'm still not sure about...]

Genji can keep himself healthy but I agree that he's a bit underwhelming. Amnesia Toxic-Stall Genji is a bit irritating but....

edit: nvm at lyrica I'm dumb I forgot about suicide spiker

« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 08:26:59 PM by shai_LP »