Author Topic: A Rin Happy Hour  (Read 2942 times)

Offline joshcja

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A Rin Happy Hour
« on: August 16, 2013, 06:59:11 PM »
This team was originally a proof of concept for my H Erin set and ran quite a few pretty fun strats and gimmicks the main one being touhoumons equivalent of a specs kyogre aqua spout, the team seeks to win not with an OMG setup sweeper but with constant offensive pressure and solid synergy between the mons. Figured I'd post it because shai already stole my core QQ everyones seen it already and its a pretty fun team to play with a lot of..."wut?" sets that somehow work consistantly.

Anyways team


T Aya @ Lum Berry
Ability: Speed boost
Ev's: Attack 252/ Speed 252/ Hp 4
Nature: Jolly
-Brave bird
-High Jump Kick
-Twister
-Taunt

This spot originally belonged to a bulky spinner S Aya but after her well deserved ban I just threw in an offensive T Aya lead, she fills the void left nicely and can antilead like no other with her mix of amazing coverage, attack, speed, and taunt/twister can keep spikes off my side of the field for good. Wish support from D dai can keep her up and running as a threat well into the game so she often plays both offensive spinner lead and endgame cleaner. Boss bird is Boss bird.


Attack Rin @ Gothic Dress
Ability: Flash Fire
Ev's: 252 Spatk/ 252 Spd/ 4 Hp
Nature: Timid
-Eruption
-Blast Burn
-Binding Voice
-Sunny Day

With all the special fire moves aimed at D dai rin can come in and turn on flash fire and then set up a sunny day, at which point eruption 2 hit KO's even bulky quad resists. Encore + 160 Spdef lets D dai soak even stab flamethrower from most things and set up the encore allowing for easy setup. Even minus the gimmic setup A rin can still do work with a decent speed tier and normal stab eruptions. Clean OHKOing a fully invested Ad alice yoshika or D kayuga is just pure fun.


Defense Daiyousei @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Ev's: 252 SpDef/252 Hp/ 4 Def
Nature: Calm
-Leach Seed
-Wish
-T wave
-Encore

I give you....taunt bait. That said this little fairy can live all but the most powerful super effective hits, to give you an idea of how TANK this is A patchy fire blast does 93% max with no boosting item and neutral special hits not coming from mistress outfit D alice cannot come close to out DDing even unprotected wish. D dai is the special side of this teams wall core, and with all of her weaknesses covered by immunities she can provide amazing support by keeping the entire team healthy and spreading para everywhere.


Yumeko @ Special Bloomers
Ability: Guard Armor
Ev's: 252 Hp/ 252 Atk/ 4 Def
Nature: Adamant
-Blade Flash
-Pursuit
-Spikes
-Superpower

Ok, So keeping your spikes on a banded thing in generally a terrible idea, however 3rdgen pursuit will not lock you into a move if the opponent swaps out so its not horrible + i didn't have room for spikes on anything else. The superior maid picks off annoying D alices and trapkills otherwise annoying things while providing a much needed bulky steel typing. Superpower is just here to wreck youki's who get cocky.


Helper Eirin @ leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Ev's: 252 Def/236 Spd/22 SpAtk
Nature: Bold
-Aqua Shower
-Burn Powder
-Poison Bomb
-Recover

Same set that I posted in the moveset forum, will completely destroy teams when coupled with D dai and teammates who at the time offered key immunities and coverage to remove all of H erin's counters. The given EV's outrun 90 neutral or 80 + speed natures and aqua shower/burn powder/poison bomb destroy every swapin while erin herself is free to swap in and out at her leisure. Hell with nat cure you cant even status this thing.


Technical Toyohime @ leftovers
Ability: Own Tempo
Ev's: 252 Spatk/ 168 Spd/ 90 Hp
Nature: Modest
-Surf
-Earth Power
-Mana Burst
-Calm Mind

Standard speed creep T toyo is standard and is still one of the greatest carries in touhoumon, with her bulk and huge specattack and a spread made to outspeed base 80's with a single point of investment T toyo is capable of picking up any slack left by the death of a teamate and running with it.

Team overview: This core, will own your soul if you do not come prepared. H erin and D dai provide solid pivots for the rest of the team covering their weaknesses and the rest of the team can easily swap in on things that would threaten the core. Every mon on the team can threaten swapins and require no turns of setup to be very legitimate threats. However giving any puppet on the team a free turn is near suicide, with a turn of setup T aya can remove hazards and become faster than everything with amazing coverage, A rin can kill absolutely anything, D dai can become practically immortal on the special side with both leach seed and wish healing while spreading para, yumeko...can get up spikes (it sounds lame but spikes = best move in the game damit), H erin can demolish every swapin and T toyo can Cm up and live up to her reputation as one of the most dangerous mons not in ubers.

How to counter the team: Bring a stupidly powerful wallbreaker that does not require setup and make good plays around it, once H erin or D dai go down the team is incredibly vulnerable to a sweep with only T toyo to soak hits. This team also has a very hard time against unconventional strats such as baton pass, sub disable, or even perish trapping. A patchy and sub disable/nasty plot seiga can both open up this team like its nothing. Once something IS set up the team is really forced to sac something, S yamame in particular can threaten both parts of the core with an OHKO and can simply baton pass out of T toyo while yumemi behind a sub is NOT something this team wants to deal with.

Stealing Improving the team: A rin and yumeko are both running somewhat subpar sets so feel free to change/replace them, D dai is probably strictly worse than D kayuga but I'm paranoid about miasma and T toyo can probably roll 3 attack whirlwind to help vs setup sweepers.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 09:17:55 AM by joshcja »

Offline shai_LP

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Re: A Rin Happy Hour
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2013, 07:19:57 PM »
Quote
shai already stole my core QQ






its like you're calling me out to post my Zfairy+This Core team
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 07:53:15 PM by shai_LP »

Offline Naļ

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Re: A Rin Happy Hour
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2013, 08:21:31 PM »
If you don't manage to Aqua Shower a physical Earth - or if someone weakened your HEirin beforehand, forcing you to either Recover or hit with a weakened Aqua Shower - then that core'll probably suffer a loss or two, won't it?

HEirin isn't too fond of Earthquake, despite her impressive physical bulk, and DDai isn't much better in that aspect. The best you could do would be Encoring the EQ and then getting a free TAya switch-in, but that'd still take a lot of HP from DDai.

Also, I'm not too sure only having unprotected Wish suffices for what'd be part of a defensive core. It never worked for me, at least.

Offline shai_LP

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Re: A Rin Happy Hour
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2013, 08:51:52 PM »
If you don't manage to Aqua Shower a physical Earth - or if someone weakened your HEirin beforehand, forcing you to either Recover or hit with a weakened Aqua Shower - then that core'll probably suffer a loss or two, won't it?

HEirin isn't too fond of Earthquake, despite her impressive physical bulk, and DDai isn't much better in that aspect. The best you could do would be Encoring the EQ and then getting a free TAya switch-in, but that'd still take a lot of HP from DDai.

Also, I'm not too sure only having unprotected Wish suffices for what'd be part of a defensive core. It never worked for me, at least.

Suika is the only thing that wants to eat Aqua Shower in switch-in

0+ Atk Suika Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Heirin: 156-186 (37.05 - 44.18%) -- 99.78% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Suika Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Heirin: 204-242 (48.45 - 57.48%) -- 45.31% chance to 2HKO

turn this is after

22 SpA (custom) Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD (custom): 254-300 (61.5 - 72.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
22 SpA (custom) Water Spout vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 204-240 (58.28 - 68.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
full defense investment
22 SpA (custom) Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 204-240 (49.39 - 58.11%) -- 60.16% chance to 2HKO [Guaranteed 2HKO with 1 layer of spikes]

of course this uses full HP Aqua Shower so iunno

for science!

252+ Atk Attack Yuugi Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def HEirin: 314-372 (74.58 - 88.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Unprotected Wish is circumvented by T-Wave chance, but yeah it's a bit more open than Detect/Wish

Offline joshcja

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Re: A Rin Happy Hour
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2013, 03:09:42 AM »

Suika is the only thing that wants to eat Aqua Shower in switch-in

0+ Atk Suika Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Heirin: 156-186 (37.05 - 44.18%) -- 99.78% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Suika Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Heirin: 204-242 (48.45 - 57.48%) -- 45.31% chance to 2HKO

turn this is after

22 SpA (custom) Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD (custom): 254-300 (61.5 - 72.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
22 SpA (custom) Water Spout vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 204-240 (58.28 - 68.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
full defense investment
22 SpA (custom) Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 204-240 (49.39 - 58.11%) -- 60.16% chance to 2HKO [Guaranteed 2HKO with 1 layer of spikes]

of course this uses full HP Aqua Shower so iunno

for science!

252+ Atk Attack Yuugi Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def HEirin: 314-372 (74.58 - 88.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Unprotected Wish is circumvented by T-Wave chance, but yeah it's a bit more open than Detect/Wish

Remember to burn suika in those calcs :p

Offline Naļ

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Re: A Rin Happy Hour
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2013, 09:08:44 AM »
Quote from: Josh
Remember to burn suika in those calcs :p
And then suddenly wisp misses, HEirin dies and you lose the battle :<
theorymon
nah, i actually used HEirin for quite a while before switching to DHina



But seriously, HEirin's probably not the best answer ever to physical Earths, even though you could manage if you manage to burn them. The risk of you plain losing that battle is rather big considering we're talking about a defensive core, which is supposed to hold against even critical hits, let alone wisp misses.

Earths can still revenge kill you or switch into a Poison Bomb without any trouble, as long as they can do something before HEirin Aqua Showers her face (Rock Bullet and AKeine come to mind). If they bring her HP down first thing, and if that HP drop is considerable, she's in a pretty tough spot, because:
  • if she got hit before Aqua Showering, the attack won't be enough to OHKO, and may even be tanked;
  • if she tried to burn and got hit before doing so, she'll get rather hurt and be forced to Recover - even worse if the burn actually misses.
Either way, she's forced to Recover afterwards, but she risks dying before doing so.
Thankfully, HEirin is quite fast, so this shouldn't happen too often, but that doesn't mean things like AKeine can't check it if they come in after something dies, or if something lacking a 4x weakness comes in against PBomb.







You're probably thinking that you'll just OHKO AKeine with Aqua Shower, but... not really. Yeah, time to test out that damage calculator.
  • Banded Jolly 252 Atk/252 Spd AKeine Head Smash vs Bold 252 Def HEirin: 108~127% - guaranteed OHKO
  • Sports Sweater Jolly 252 Atk/252 Spd AKeine Head Smash vs same HEirin: 85.98~101.66% - 12.5% OHKO chance; 87.5% OHKO chance after Spikes; guaranteed OHKO after two layers of Spikes
  • Lum Berry same AKeine EarthQuake vs same HEirin: 60.33~71.25% - guaranteed 2HKO

So yeah, I don't think a defensive core that kind of... dies to a single banded mon is the most solid core ever.



But let's say Spikes weren't around and AKeine wasn't banded: in that case, AKeine gets Aqua Shower in the face, and then she dies, right? Not really. That's the point of switching in AKeine to begin with - even if she doesn't OHKO, she weakens HEirin enough that Aqua Shower isn't an OHKO anymore.

Moar damage calculations.
  • Aqua Shower from Bold 22 SAtk HEirin at 14.02% HP (best-case scenario for HEirin against Sweater Head Smash) vs Jolly 4 HP AKeine: 42.3~50% - 0.39% chance of 2HKOing; 75% 2HKO chance after one layer of Spikes
  • Aqua Shower from same HEirin at 39.67% HP (best-case scenario for HEirin against Lum EQ) vs same AKeine: 111.53~132.05% - guaranteed OHKO
  • Aqua Shower from same HEirin at 28.75% HP (worst-case scenario for HEirin against Lum EQ) vs same AKeine: 82.05~97.43% - guaranteed 2HKO; 62.05% OHKO chance after one layer of Spikes
Bottom line: if AKeine's running Rock Head, you lose even if she isn't banded. If AKeine's running Band + Intimidate, she wins, too, since EQ'd do a minimum of 89.78% in this case, leaving HEirin at less HP than what Sweater Head Smash's minimum damage'd leave her with.







Do note that even though AKeine was the main example, any other Earth type faster than you could threaten you just as well and not care about the Aqua Shower that's coming afterwards. I just used AKeine as a primary example because, well, if something without any defenses worth mentioning can come in on you, not care about a 4x weakness and win, then something is seriously wrong here.

Non-Earth strong physical attackers could give you some trouble, as well, especially if they're something like a Guts resttalker or a Fire-type (Burn Powder doesn't burn Fire-types, it just burns non-Fire Flash Fire users, mainly Futo).

And I'm not too sure how effective Leech Seed is on DDai, but you really might want to consider Detect instead, considering she's an essential part of the defensive core. Wish isn't reliable recovery by itself, really.

Well, just my two cents, either way.

Offline joshcja

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Re: A Rin Happy Hour
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2013, 09:17:29 AM »
A) Your saccing a puppet to even get A Kiene in on H Eirin without catching a burn or straight up dieing to aqua shower
B) T Aya, Ohnoes you predicted and killed her with banded steel fist? Aqua shower time! Something else is gonna fucking die
C) You sacced something, I probably have a puppet I no longer need, Death fodder ftw?

Perfect prediction can break any team, good thing perfect prediction does not exist, even in theorymon.

The core works by having 4 other mons that prey on its weaknesses rather than attempting to straight wall everything, aka offensive core
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 10:10:04 AM by joshcja »

Offline Naļ

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Re: A Rin Happy Hour
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2013, 10:11:07 AM »
So you're saying you wouldn't just rush in for that 4x weakness? That's what I was expecting, and that was one of the points of all the calculations in the first place :<

I could start talking about slowpass if it was about getting AKeine in cleanly, but whatever



The point is... a defensive core is meant to be dependable, you know? It's what you switch into when the opposing team is running wild and you need to stop their momentum.

Of course your team has to cover for the core. However, the point of the core being there is that it's hard to bring down by itself. Like that, you can invest the rest of your team's resources in offense/support/whatever. It does mean that you kill more, and that's wonderful, but it also makes the rest of your team fragile.

To compensate for that, you need a core on which you can depend defensively.
In other words, if you have to depend on the rest of the team to stop a single puppet, then that's not a defensive core.



Of course what you're saying works when you do have a full 6 options against a single puppet. But that's ASSUMING it's early game, and ASSUMING you DO have those full 6 options, which you most likely WON'T, considering most of those options are comprised of mons specialized in offense. They can only cover for so long, they're not walls or anything.

Then, if both you and your opponent get into late game... usually, in a more or less equal game, the case will be that both you and your opponent will have your cores still alive (if not, then you're already screwed), as well as one revenge-killer around or a similar late-game mon.

I don't see the need for perfect prediction anywhere. From there, it's clear that your core might have a weakness it can't manage by itself... and the very definition of "defensive core" makes that a problem.

Offline joshcja

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Re: A Rin Happy Hour
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2013, 11:10:40 AM »
Why the fuck would H Eirin stay in on Mrs always banded head smash.

I already covered ways to break the core and ways to improve the team overall in the OP.

The core works because if you ignore the core your team has to tank multiple full HP aqua showers, burns and para/encore lock galore while the outlying mons stay healthy thanks to wish passing and leach seed, if you try to target the core the offensive mons get free turns to wreck absolute havoc. If you swap it up then both sides of the team gut you.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 11:20:08 AM by joshcja »