Author Topic: Speed Komachi  (Read 5344 times)

Offline joshcja

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Speed Komachi
« on: August 12, 2013, 07:19:44 AM »


http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/wiki/Speed_Komachi

Type: Water
Abilities: Swift swim/Own tempo
Hp: 85
Atk:110
Def:75
SpAtk:70
SpDef:75
Spd:115

110 base attack and 115 base speed may seem awkward when S Komachi's main stab only has 80 BP but don't let that fool you, Speed Komachi is criminally underused and is an exceptionally powerful mon. Water is one of the better attacking types in the game (Holy shit its a physical sweeper that rin doesn't wall) and has the advantage of resisting or taking neutral damage from other priority abusers, add that to a movepool of aqua jet (makes a +2 komachi surprisingly hard to revenge kill with a layer or 2 of spikes up) a huge support movepool including baton pass, slack off, swords dance, and substitute along with swift swim to surprise steal sweeps and you have one well stacked mon (shot).

SD Sweeper

(Speed Komachi) (M) @ Lum (All) Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd,- SpAtk)
- Aqua Jet
- Shadow Hit/Draw The Line/Ice Punch
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall

Simple set is simple, get a SD up with Bulky waters and natures removed or weakened and go to town, waterfall can 2 hit KO even mixed wall Yoshika after 2 layers of spikes and aqua jet picks off the frail revenge killers out for your blood ohkoing many of them straight up and ohkoing all of them with 3 layers of spikes up. Shadow hit is weak but offered near perfect neutral coverage resisted by only dark/faith and dark/nature while draw line vs ice punch is a choice of walled by nature or walled by faith, I prefer draw line but meh.

Set: Fast Pass

(Speed Komachi) (M) @ Lum (All) Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk,-SpAtk)

- Baton Pass
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet/Taunt/Draw Line

This Komachi set aims to set up a SD and then murderkill the opposing revenge killer/phaser before passing out. Adamant still outruns + speed fully invested base 100's and has some serious wallbreaking power. Waterfall lets you beat every popular roar/whirlwind user 1 on 1 and aqua jet at adamant +2 will ohko faster revenge killers after 2 or 3 layers of spikes.

Counters: Both Sweeper Komachi and Baton Pass Komachi are walled to hell and back by physically bulky natures and faiths, HStar Sapphire, TSanae and Kasen can all straight up ruin SKomachi's day. S Yorihime, S wriggle, Luna Child, and A Kazami can all come in, resist aqua jet and OHKO Komachi before she can baton pass out as well.


Support: With as many counters as whe has you may ask why I consider this mon even semi viable. Well... S Komachi's counters all have 1 very important thing in common, without exception they are all commonly used to try and sponge powerful water hits, enter A Patchy who can remove all of Komachi's counters simply by existing. S Komachi and Patchy both love spikes so wynaut run em Mamizou and Speed medicine are 2 of the best spikers in the game and further help eliminate Komachi's counters. As the cherry on this synergy sundae quite a few steel and earth types lure in bulky waters and natures + they spinblock and loooove SD's (Attack Suwako).

Options: Komachi can run the own tempo shadow dance combo but if your opponent is packing a dark type then you risk losing half your team (seiga is evil) so I'm personally against it. On the bright side Komachi can run a bulkier set with slack off in a dedicated baton pass team thanks to Lilly blacks passes speed boosts. With priority and a decent movepool komachi can also run a solid band set and with taunt, WoW and slack off/painsplit she can stallbreak or antilead quite nicely.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 01:12:44 AM by joshcja »

Offline Naļ

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Re: Speed Komachi
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2013, 02:00:27 PM »
On the BPass set, the fact that you're passing out doesn't make it hard to counter at all.



Anyone that knows SKomachi usually runs Swords Dance can toy with you endlessly. Whirlwind/Roar, Yawn, Haze, Subseed... the same goes for the BPass set.

Priority users love Baton Pass. If you're weakened - or if they have Spikes themselves - Rock Bullet will hurt a lot, and what you want to do when you're low on life is exactly passing the boosts on, not straightout attacking.

Therefore, anything that can get her weakened and doesn't have much trouble with stat-ups will laugh in your face. Not too hard to do, really.



+2 AKazami is pretty dangerous and fast, but it's not fast enough for offensive teams not to have something faster that can revenge kill it, and stall or semi-stall teams can just stop the setup altogether.

Offline joshcja

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Re: Speed Komachi
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2013, 05:26:22 PM »
S komachi beats every phasing user in the game 1 on 1 with adamant waterfall at +2. Why pass out of a wall that you can kill.

Rock bullet users not named Reimu have a bad case of "dies to aqua jet" syndrome. T byakuren can come in with prior damage on S komachi and try for the espeed kill I guess.

Your better off trying to force her out with S/normal yorihime forms or a faster nature.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 05:30:51 PM by joshcja »

Offline Naļ

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Re: Speed Komachi
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2013, 05:50:24 PM »
So you're claiming that you can kill ALL users of Whirlwind, Roar, Yawn, Haze and whatever else method of forcing switches in Touhoumon? That is quite the bold claim.

But yeah, Rock Bullet users'd probably be limited to ones who don't die against you, lol.
Speaking of Espeed, banded priority in general can probably kill you in the whole prior damage hypothesis.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 05:52:32 PM by Naļ »

Offline joshcja

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Re: Speed Komachi
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2013, 05:53:26 PM »
So you're claiming that you can kill ALL users of Whirlwind, Roar, Yawn, Haze and whatever else method of forcing switches in Touhoumon? That is quite the bold claim.

Lum, Lum, Lum

Yes she kills all phasers 1 on 1.

A few things can get a haze off but nobody cares about haze.

Most banded priority abusers run Ice shard, aqua jet, or blade flash and komachi resists those. Ad mari can outspeed and E speed but she REALLY does not want to swap in with her paper def.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 05:56:54 PM by joshcja »

Offline Naļ

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Re: Speed Komachi
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2013, 06:22:48 PM »
Okay, Lum takes care of Yawn.
Oh, faster-than-you Destiny Bond kills you, too; slow DBond, on the other hand, works as a phazing tool, too.

If something weakens her before dying, something like AdMarisa can revenge kill - it doesn't need to be AdMarisa, either, anything faster than her can do so. That's the reason 115 Spd can't really sweep at +2.

Quote from: Naļ
(...) is pretty dangerous and fast, but it's not fast enough for offensive teams not to have something faster that can revenge kill it, and stall or semi-stall teams can just stop the setup altogether.
I was talking about AKazami, but the exact same applies to SKomachi.



Uhm, do you even realize what it means to say you can beat all phazers on 1vs1?

You're saying you can beat Sanae, Tokiko, Mystia, Tech and Defense Hatate, Kogasa, vanilla and Defense Kanako, Aya, Defense Wriggle, vanilla and Defense Reimu, vanilla and Tech Toyo, Sariel, Shinki, Gengetsu, Defense Mokou, Advent Yukari, Tenma, Defense Momiji, Rumia, Defense Yuugi, vanilla and Defense Tenshi, Orange, Kazami, Shingyoku-f, Helper Ran, Zombie Fairy, Defense Remilia, Helper Nazrin, Defense and Advent Meiling, Sendai, Kyouko, Yoshika, Tojiko, Futo, Miko and Kasen, all of those in a 1vs1? And that's just considering Roar and Whirlwind.



Granted, I did simply pull off a list of what mons could learn those moves, then exclude the ones who standed no chance at all, but you get the point, right? If you can't really explain one by one how she beats them, then she doesn't kill all phazers on 1vs1.

That and I can't really see you kill Yoshika 1 on 1.



Quote from: Josh
A few things can get a haze off but nobody cares about haze.
Lol

Offline joshcja

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Re: Speed Komachi
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2013, 06:33:24 PM »
Okay, Lum takes care of Yawn.
Oh, faster-than-you Destiny Bond kills you, too; slow DBond, on the other hand, works as a phazing tool, too.

If something weakens her before dying, something like AdMarisa can revenge kill - it doesn't need to be AdMarisa, either, anything faster than her can do so. That's the reason 115 Spd can't really sweep at +2.


Uhm, do you even realize what it means to say you can beat all phazers on 1vs1?

You're saying you can beat Sanae, Tokiko, Mystia, Tech and Defense Hatate, Kogasa, vanilla and Defense Kanako, Aya, Defense Wriggle, vanilla and Defense Reimu, vanilla and Tech Toyo, Sariel, Shinki, Gengetsu, Defense Mokou, Advent Yukari, Tenma, Defense Momiji, Rumia, Defense Yuugi, vanilla and Defense Tenshi, Orange, Kazami, Shingyoku-f, Helper Ran, Zombie Fairy, Defense Remilia, Helper Nazrin, Defense and Advent Meiling, Sendai, Kyouko, Yoshika, Tojiko, Futo, Miko and Kasen, all of those in a 1vs1? And that's just considering Roar and Whirlwind.



Granted, I did simply pull off a list of what mons could learn those moves, then exclude the ones who standed no chance at all, but you get the point, right? If you can't really explain one by one how she beats them, then she doesn't kill all phazers on 1vs1.

That and I can't really see you kill Yoshika 1 on 1.

A: Komachi sweeps at +2, I've been testing her on a less than ideal team and damn does she do work.
B: Yup komachi beats all of those at +2
C: 2 hit KO's yoshika with a jolly nature
D: the only common fast bond user (S rumia) runs poison bomb so D bond is a moot point there. Slower bond users are dead to waterfall or pass fodder.

Offline Naļ

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Re: Speed Komachi
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2013, 06:53:58 PM »
A. Suppose the following scenario: you setup, kill something, then something faster than you comes to revenge kill you. Does she still do work in that case?



C. Same scenario: you setup, kill something, Yoshika comes in, Roars you, Recovers and goes on a walling spree. Alternatively, she can switch into you on the turn you're setting up.

B. You seem to misunderstand: 2HKOing something isn't "beating" it. Look at C.



D.
Quote from: Josh
the only common fast bond user
Exactly the point. There are other fast bond users.

Slower bond users are only dead to Waterfall if you OHKO them. There are bulky DBond users around.
Pass fodder? I don't think you'd pass into something that can stall the DBond user until they have no more PP for repeated use.

Quote from: The wiki
If the user of this move faints before their next move, (...)
(Source: http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/wiki/Destiny_Bond)
Meaning, if you Waterfall and I survive and DBond, if you kill me on the next turn, you die. AKA phazing.
There's BPass, but if I throw in another DBond on the turn you BPass, you're still forced to either switch or die anyway.



(Discussing with you has been pleasant, but we'll have to continue later, gotta go now :<)

Offline joshcja

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Re: Speed Komachi
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2013, 07:10:07 PM »
A. Suppose the following scenario: you setup, kill something, then something faster than you comes to revenge kill you. Does she still do work in that case?

Aqua jet + spikes

C. Same scenario: you setup, kill something, Yoshika comes in, Roars you, Recovers and goes on a walling spree. Alternatively, she can switch into you on the turn you're setting up.

30% flinch, yoshika takes 50% + spikes and is in revenge kill range at worst

B. You seem to misunderstand: 2HKOing something isn't "beating" it. Look at C.

It is when the things that komachi 2 hit KO's cannot do the same to her, cannot status her, risk flinch/crit, and are revenge killed if they phase

D.
Quote from: Josh
the only common fast bond user
Exactly the point. There are other fast bond users.

Speed kogasa...thats about it

Slower bond users are only dead to Waterfall if you OHKO them. There are bulky DBond users around.
Pass fodder? I don't think you'd pass into something that can stall the DBond user until they have no more PP for repeated use.

If they're just going to spam D bond komachi can boost to +6

Quote from: The wiki
If the user of this move faints before their next move, (...)
(Source: http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/wiki/Destiny_Bond)
Meaning, if you Waterfall and I survive and DBond, if you kill me on the next turn, you die. AKA phazing.
There's BPass, but if I throw in another DBond on the turn you BPass, you're still forced to either switch or die anyway.

Yes, I know how D bond works



(Discussing with you has been pleasant, but we'll have to continue later, gotta go now :<)


Theorymon on shoddy please, I'll be throwing together a few more teams of test sets when I get less lazy so feel free to do the same.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 07:18:10 PM by joshcja »

Offline Naļ

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Re: Speed Komachi
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2013, 06:00:30 PM »
A lot of what you said is under the assumption that you'll be able to consistently keep your Spikes on the field. Good semi-stall or stall teams, however, won't really allow that as easily as you make it sound.

Quote from: Josh
Aqua jet + spikes
Again, assuming you do have Spikes on the field.
Quote from: Josh
30% flinch
aka pray for hax
Quote from: Josh
yoshika takes 50% + spikes
Good teams running Yoshika are probably the exact same kind of team that wouldn't allow Spikes to stay on the field.
Quote from: Josh
and is in revenge kill range at worst
That's under the assumption that she'll bring out something that can revenge kill her after phazing. That is often not the case. And when it does happen that she brings out something dangerous, she can, I just, dunno, uh... switch out? Given the occasion, it's not too hard for her to come back in later and Recover, effectively restoring their defensive core.



Quote from: Josh
It is when the things that komachi 2 hit KO's cannot do the same to her, cannot status her, risk flinch/crit, and are revenge killed if they phase
What I said just now. No, 2HKOing something isn't "beating" it.
Quote from: Josh
If they're just going to spam D bond komachi can boost to +6
Sure, and then die after she's at +6 - or BPassing. If you did BPass on to something that doesn't just run four attacks, that'd probably give the opponent trouble, yeah. DBond phazing is gimmicky to begin with, but it does counter the straight-out SD Sweeper set.



Quote from: Josh
Theorymon on shoddy please, I'll be throwing together a few more teams of test sets when I get less lazy so feel free to do the same.
This.

Offline joshcja

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Re: Speed Komachi
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2013, 07:39:33 PM »
A lot of what you said is under the assumption that you'll be able to consistently keep your Spikes on the field. Good semi-stall or stall teams, however, won't really allow that as easily as you make it sound.

Attack suwako.

Offline shai_LP

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Re: Speed Komachi
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2013, 07:55:40 PM »
A lot of what you said is under the assumption that you'll be able to consistently keep your Spikes on the field. Good semi-stall or stall teams, however, won't really allow that as easily as you make it sound.

Attack suwako.

This puppet desperately needs a write-up orz

I've never ran into it personally but its reputation is staggering.

Offline Naļ

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Re: Speed Komachi
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2013, 11:09:58 PM »
Quote from: Josh
Attack suwako.
Doesn't mean spinblockers are absolute. For example, Kogasa can Hydro Pump on the switch-in if the opponent knows you're going to switch into your Earth-type, and ASuwako will not enjoy that.

Offline joshcja

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Re: Speed Komachi
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2013, 11:16:50 PM »
Doesn't mean spinblockers are absolute. For example, Kogasa can Hydro Pump on the switch-in if the opponent knows you're going to switch into your Earth-type, and ASuwako will not enjoy that.

Man, I'm so glad we have team preview to allow predictions like that.

Offline DoctorShanks

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Re: Speed Komachi
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2013, 11:19:05 PM »
Doesn't mean spinblockers are absolute. For example, Kogasa can Hydro Pump on the switch-in if the opponent knows you're going to switch into your Earth-type, and ASuwako will not enjoy that.

Man, I'm so glad we have team preview to allow predictions like that.

I think the implication was that the opponent has already previously seen your ASuwako/Earth-type earlier in the battle.

Either way, that still requires top level prediction.