Author Topic: Attack Sanae  (Read 5482 times)

Offline joshcja

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Attack Sanae
« on: August 10, 2013, 08:05:06 PM »


http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/wiki/Attack_Sanae

Type: Water/Faith
Ability: Serene Grace
Hp: 80
Atk: 70
Def: 80
SpAtk: 130
SpDef:80
Spd: 90

Set: Anti lead

(Attack Sanae) (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SpAtk
Timid nature (+Spd,-Atk)
- Aqua Shower
- Extrasensory
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

Usage: Everyone loves to lead with their spiker for some reason, so taunt that POS and then murder its face off with aqua shower off 130 base special attack or para flinch it out of existence. Lum is for faster status leads. Works well on aggressive teams and is pretty unfun to swap into thanks to water/faith being a really nasty typing + status and...aqua shower off 130 base special attack.

Why would I use this over x puppet? Attack Sanae is one of the few puppets in all of touhoumon that can stop bulky sub lum leads such as Suika or flat out TANK leads such as D Tenshi/D Kanako from spiking and she is quite possibly the best possible counter to Kotohime and Mugetsu in the lead spot. Sakuya forms are straight OHKOed by aqua shower and vanilla Aya can be completely shut off by taunt>T wave>Taunt>Paraflinch spam. She can also OHKO common explosion leads not named Mimi-Chan or Mamizou.

Counters: Spiking Mamizou and Speed Medicine can out speed and out status A Sanae or simply kill her outright while taking minimal damage from her stab combination while abusing lum themselves.

Support: Just run a defensive core that can tank faster antileads. Wish support can keep her hp nice and high to boost up her aqua showers late game and aromatherapy or a sleep absorber can mitigate the damage medicine and mamizou and  can cause. Insomnia users like Reisen and Rikako or rest talkers like Sara can come in on the obvious status and suppress spikes with offensive pressure.

Options: Sanae can run a CM set however due to base 90 speed, lack of a sub, and lack of reliable speed boosting she isn't going to be sweeping anytime soon and dedicated status abuse sets are pretty easily shut down. Sanae can run a decent lefties wallbreaker set... but its pretty much this set with lefties and surf. Wish/Detect/Aqua Shower/Move has potential cause 80/80/80 bulk and nice typing.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 01:15:13 AM by joshcja »

Offline Rhetco

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Re: Attack Sanae
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2013, 12:44:49 AM »
Futo doesn't resist Faith, so no she won't magically wall all of Sanae's attacks.
The only way for her to decently bulk Extrasensory would be to have max HP and SDef investment, which seems rather situational for a Futo.

Also, I've never seen a single Futo carry Zen Headbutt, but that's just me.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 02:27:53 AM by Rhetco »
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Offline Naļ

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Re: Attack Sanae
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2013, 03:10:05 PM »
Anything faster than her that can hurt her won't be hurt much by Aqua Shower. No need to OHKO her, really.
There are better Aqua Shower users, like HEirin.

She's probably too slow to run Taunt. In fact, I don't see her being too good on the lead position. If their lead isn't an anti-lead, it probably will be faster than you. Not the best anti-lead ever imho.



Instead,... you're probably not abusing Serene Grace enough. Serene Grace users have to be able to hurt things with their attacks (that's why Serene Grace DTewi doesn't work as anything other than a setter up or disrupter), and ASanae excels at that.

Also, she has a wonderful attack to be used with Serene Grace, Muddy Water. How could you not mention a 60% accuracy drop that gets STAB and hurts that much? :<

Because of that, what ASanae's probably best at is running some form of paralysis, then screwing things over with Muddy Water and Extrasensory combined with paralysis's 25% and her plain big damage.









From there, a SG-abuse average set'd probably go like this:

Item: Leftovers/Salac
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP/252 SAtk for Wish; 252 Spd/252 SAtk for Endure
Nature: Modest for Wish, Timid for Endure

Muddy Water
Extrasensory
Secret Power/Thunder Wave
Wish/Endure

The idea is to paralyze things with either Secret Power or Thunder Wave, then abuse accuracy drops and flinch from there. 25% paralysis coupled with 40% flinch is scary; 25% paralysis coupled with accuracy drops is even scarier.

Muddy Water's very nice, because it can drop things' accuracy on switch-in, too, unlike flinch.
And let's not forget that this set still hurts like hell, otherwise Serene Grace is pointless to begin with.


Things get more interesting in the last slot. 90 base Speed, a +Spd nature and a Salac boost is, let me remind you all, just enough to outrun anything in the game. Couple that with Endure and you've got some sweeping to do. Still, you might ask: why is a speed boost important on something that runs paralysis?

Well, the idea here is that whatever can get you low on HP is exactly what managed to get past that whole setup of yours, either due to plain RNG, being immune to paralysis... whatever. However, can it still stop you if you Endure a hit that'd kill you, then outspeed it and hit it with some scary STAB?

No, my friend, it probably can't.
Basically, the point is to outlive ASanae's probable usefulness and eliminate what'd be a counter otherwise.


Otherwise, because ASanae makes things switch out a lot, you can put those Spd EVs on HP and play with Wish, giving nice team support with paralysis, Wish and damage all in one, while also making her more durable herself. In that case you'd probably want to run either Brightpowder of Leftovers, as well as a Modest Nature. Petaya could work, too.

Leftovers essentially heals you while you're not being hit, which can make the opponent despair pretty quickly, but Brightpowder can work well to heal yourself with Wish. Wish sets can also consider 252 Spd so as not to depend on paralysis to have Extrasensory be good, but the HP drop's probably not worth it.









However, there's more where that came from!
Behold the ultimate Rain Dance sweeper set! (yup)

Item: Leftovers/Brightpowder/Salac
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP/252 SAtk (252 Spd if running Salac)
Nature: Modest/Timid (Timid if running Salac)

Rain Dance
Muddy Water
Extrasensory
Thunder

Behold thy legendary three-STABs set! 120 BP on each move, with near-perfect accuracy and a very nice SAtk!
Except your three STABs also just happen to have a 60% of accuracy drop, a 40% of flinching and a 60% of paralysis respectively!

...Yeah.

Again, once you've set up Rain Dance, your goal is probably to go for the paralysis from there (except that "paralysis" will hurt A LOT), then abuse everything else and have some fun while blowing holes on things and sweeping.

There's still the option of Salac + 252 Spd and Timid (just without Endure), but it's not too reliable in this case. The preferred item here is probably Leftovers to heal yourself while not being hit; Brightpowder sounds good on paper, but it's probably best on a Wish set, on the Rain Dance one it's kind of overkill.









Counters: status users. Fast Sleep and Freeze users are... kind of obvious, while Thunder Wave renders much of the set useless. Toxic stall probably doesn't work too well (unless they want to lose part of their defensive core to paraflinch!), but it can take care of ASanae in an emergency.

Advents are the biggest possible threat to any Serene Grace user; however, they still have to be able to take on ASanae's attacks, which isn't too easy. AdvMeirin and AdvAlice are the first options that come to mind, and they can heal off other paralyzed users, too.

Stuff that's immune to stat drops can also laugh on ASanae's face - for the most part. Paraflinch's still a problem.
Surprisingly, Keen Eye makes much of Sanae's main gimmick pointless. (OMGKEENEYEBEINGUSEFULFORONCE)
Limber users can also threaten her to a fair degree.


If she's running Rain Dance, stuff that can abuse it counter her nicely. Then you can proceed to blow holes in their team using HER rain. Swift Swimmers (who like to run Lum, by the way) come to mind.

Other than that, stuff that can OHKO or seriously hurt her. She's dangerous, but it's not like she can't be forced to switch out, and her moves are mainly for RNG abuse, not for coverage, so she's easy to revenge kill if she stays in.


Just running Lums and/or Cleric support won't usually counter her, though. In the first case, Thunder still hurts like heck and Secret Power still probably puts you in OHKO range, though it does counter TWave; in the second, she can still spam her moves on you, making you flinch/miss/whatever, then paralyze you again once you've managed to heal yourself off.

The RNG is unforgiving.









Teammates: there are two things to keep in mind: ASanae will cause switches, and ASanae is weak to status. Hence, Spikes and Cleric support.

Also, because she likes to paralyze things before forcing them to switch out, a team that can benefit from paralysis support is probably best suited for her. (Basically, the same kind of team that'd benefit a lot from using SAya.)

Other than that, just keep in mind her type weaknesses, coverage and such. Because she focuses on secondary effects instead of coverage, she'll probably have to switch out now and then, so have mons who can counter her hard counters. Pretty standard fare.

Offline joshcja

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Re: Attack Sanae
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2013, 05:49:44 PM »
Oh look, gimmic sets.

Offline Naļ

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Re: Attack Sanae
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2013, 05:55:13 PM »
There's no reason it'd be a gimmick. Serene Grace is a thing, you know. Ever had it against you?

The only thing that can pretty much hardstop it is Advent, and that's if they happen to be able to stand up against 130 SAtk.

Offline joshcja

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Re: Attack Sanae
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2013, 06:04:30 PM »
There's no reason it'd be a gimmick. Serene Grace is a thing, you know. Ever had it against you?

The only thing that can pretty much hardstop it is Advent, and that's if they happen to be able to stand up against 130 SAtk.

Secret power is strictly worse than T wave, misses out on advents AND youki
Muddy water...is a joke, surf is strictly better and aqua shower off 130 base.

Rain dance just wastes a turn.

I've ran into both of those sets...a lot...and neither of them has the same impact as a simple

"Ok, ima aqua shower while threatening T wave and taunt"

Offline Naļ

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Re: Attack Sanae
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2013, 06:35:47 PM »
Sure, then just run TWave instead.
A 60% chance of accuracy drop backed by STAB and a pretty nice SAtk is a joke?

Tell that to AMurasa and Sunny Day AMinoriko. Except ASanae relies on the RNG instead of on speed. From there, AMurasa/AMinoriko can abuse their speed, while ASanae can abuse her Thunders and acc drops/flinches. What exactly is wrong with that concept?



You could call it a gimmick if you mean it relies on the RNG. In that sense, it is gimmicky because it isn't 100% reliable, but it's not like it's something you'd only consider using once in a blue moon. A gimmick is, by definition, something rarely effective; this isn't the case.

How did you stop them, then? And I still find her a bit too slow for Taunt, really.

Offline joshcja

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Re: Attack Sanae
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2013, 06:43:24 PM »
Sure, then just run TWave instead.
A 60% chance of accuracy drop backed by STAB and a pretty nice SAtk is a joke?

Yes, your using a less than optimal attack just to pray for hax

Tell that to AMurasa and Sunny Day AMinoriko. Except ASanae relies on the RNG instead of on speed. From there, AMurasa/AMinoriko can abuse their speed, while ASanae can abuse her Thunders and acc drops/flinches. What exactly is wrong with that concept?

Sanae gains 30% accuracy on one move from rain, A minoriko gains speed and pseudo stab on heat wave.



You could call it a gimmick if you mean it relies on the RNG. In that sense, it is gimmicky because it isn't 100% reliable, but it's not like it's something you'd only consider using once in a blue moon. A gimmick is, by definition, something rarely effective; this isn't the case.

Stab 130 base aqua shower or pray for a lot of hax. Guess whats more consistant

Can we keep theorymon to shoddy and just post proven sets here? That'd be awesome.

Offline Naļ

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Re: Attack Sanae
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2013, 03:50:29 PM »


^ Where does it say "post your proven sets here"? I don't see it anywhere.

If a set is untested, it may still be posted for discussion. There is no restriction on that. Note the "improving them" part, that's what it is for.


As you are a more experienced player than me, your opinion is very much appreciated.
However, experience does not give you the right to belittle a set, and nor does the fact that it is a set idea give you it.

There is no reason as to why a set idea would be worthless simply because of being an idea. In fact, that assumption is almost ridiculous. If it were as such, then there would never be any new sets for any of the mons, and any of the mons currently deemed "useless" or "outclassed" would forever stay as such.


The fact that both of those sets were played against you - with neither working - does not mean much by itself, either. For all I know, it could just be new users trying the idea out and playing badly, which is actually quite likely considering the kind of people to test non-mainstream sets are usually exactly the newcomers.

Also, while I value your opinion - as it is the opinion of an experienced player - please keep in mind that it is not the definite truth, and that I will not take it as such. If your opinion can be contested, then I will do so, regardless of my position.



Now then, if you want to keep discussing this set idea, feel free to do so. In fact, I'd appreciate it if you mentioned how you stopped the set when people played it against you,
Quote from: Naļ
How did you stop them, then?
..., since this would help me improve the set and think further upon the viability of it.
Now then, back on topic.


















Before I start, let me point this out: a Serene Grace set's main idea is both to hurt and to cause annoyance with secondary effects. It's not meant only to hurt, and it's not meant only to rely on secondary effects, either. It does BOTH at the same time.

If you want consistent and proven examples, just look at TWave/Air Slash Togekiss and TWave/Subs/Iron Head Jirachi. They were both very relevant Gen IV threats. Here, a few handy links:
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/togekiss (third set, "Paraflinch")
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/jirachi (fifth set, "Substitute + Thunder Wave")

(Although I must admit both of those articles taught me a lot on the sets' usage myself.)



Quote from: Josh
Yes, your using a less than optimal attack just to pray for hax
That's a Pokemon-minded opinion.

In Pokemon, Muddy Water has... 90 BP, if I'm not mistaken, as well as 90% accuracy and a 10% chance of accuracy drop. The 90% accuracy often screwed you up, though, and because the 10% chance didn't activate often enough, Surf was deemed the best option. Which is exactly what you seem to think:
Quote from: Josh
Muddy water...is a joke, surf is strictly better
So yeah.

However, in this scenario, we're exchanging a 95 BP/100% accuracy move for an 80 BP/90% accuracy one with a 60% chance of dropping accuracy.

60% isn't "praying for hax". It's a hindrance when it works - and it works pretty damn often - and when not, it shouldn't be too much of a bother, because it still hurts, especially if backed up by Rain Dance (in which case it reaches 180 BP). Let's not forget ASanae has more base SAtk than Satori.

Surf + Rain Dance would reach 213 BP. In essence, you're missing out on about 30 BP and 10% accuracy, and, in exchange, gaining a 60% chance of dropping accuracy.
Sounds like a good deal to me.



Quote from: Josh
Sanae gains 30% accuracy on one move from rain, A minoriko gains speed and pseudo stab on heat wave.
Wrong. Let's not forget ASanae is Water/Faith. That means that, with Rain Dance, she gains a 180 BP move with a 60% chance of an accuracy drop. Hurts like hell and has a nasty effect.

Is that all? No. That "30% accuracy on one move" you mentioned isn't just that, it's a pseudo stab, very much like AMinoriko's Heat Wave. 120 BP, 10 (16) PP and 100% accuracy... aka pseudo stab.

And let's not forget ASanae's Thunder has a 60% paralysis chance.
Usually, this is what ASanae'll want to start doing after Rain Dance: paralyzing her opponents with Thunder. Is 60% reliable for paralysis? No, not very much. However, it's still a 120 BP perfectly accurate move backed up by 130 SAtk.

From there, she can either paraflinch with Extrasensory or crush things with Muddy Water while stacking the accuracy drop with the 25% fully paralyzed chance. THAT's why gaining a perfectly accurate Thunder is so important; it's not just a move, it opens up a whole strategy.

That's also why the percentuals on the other moves are significant, too: by themselves, they're not very strong, but the point is to stack them with paralysis, not use them by themselves.


tl;dr: ASanae gains pseudo stab from rain, as well as widening her SG possibilities.



Quote
Stab 130 base aqua shower or pray for a lot of hax. Guess whats more consistant
Aqua Shower isn't "130 base". It's 150 base from full HP, 120 base on 80% HP, 75 on 50% HP and so on. Basically, the formula for its BP is (150 * current HP/max HP).

See its wiki page for more info.

In other words, if a fast mon hits you before you get the chance to attack - which wouldn't be too uncommon considering you wanted to use her as an anti-lead, and also because she's not too fast herself - its BP is drastically reduced. Not the most consistent move ever, now is it?

And Muddy Water isn't "a lot of hax", hopefully I already explained this well enough when you were saying the attack is "less than optimal" and "a joke".
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 06:04:37 PM by Naļ »

Offline Doesnt

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Re: Attack Sanae
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2013, 04:55:30 PM »
Quote
60% isn't "praying for hax". It's a hindrance when it works - and it works pretty damn often - and when not, it shouldn't be too much of a bother, because it still hurts, especially if backed up by Rain Dance (in which case it reaches 180 BP). Let's not forget ASanae has more base SAtk than Satori.

You have a 54% (muddy water's accuracy is not ideal) chance of making the opponent's attacks have a 25% fail rate, meaning on the turn you use it you have a 13% chance of avoiding the foe's next attack. This is simply not worth trading 100% accuracy and roughly a sixth of Surf's BP to me- maybe in Doubles where you're smacking two things with it you could get more utility but just don't do it in Singles. And yes I know that 13% is an inaccurate representation over multiple turns but things tend not to stay in long anyway.

Where's the Silver Wind discussion? I know Serene Grace is cute but killing things dead is also nice and this move seems to be going ignored. It looks to me like Attack Sanae's main advantages over the very similar Futo are being a speed tier higher, having special Faith STAB, and a beefier SAtk stat- shouldn't we be taking advantage of these?
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Offline Rhetco

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Re: Attack Sanae
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2013, 05:06:03 PM »
As someone who actually used Muddy Water ASanae for a while, I can honestly say that it did not pull up it's weight.
There were almost no situations where Surf would not have been more useful.

Just because something gets Serene Grace doesn't mean that is has to abuse it. Attack Sanae is called Attack Sanae for a reason.
...besides, Tech Sanae is both faster and bulkier than Attack Sanae, so if you want to use a hax set, why not just use her?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 06:04:59 PM by Rhetco »
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Offline Naļ

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Re: Attack Sanae
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2013, 05:36:05 PM »
tbh I'm kind of glad other people joined the discussion :<

@Rhet:
Quote from: Rhet
...besides, Tech Sanae both faster and bulkier than Attack Sanae, so if you want to use a hax set, why not just use her?
Yeah, true, TSanae's probably better at pure hax than ASanae. I realized it after reading those Smogon articles, lol.

Either way, though, the fact remains that ASanae is - at least in theory - far more destructive if running a Rain Dance set than TSanae. That's what I had in mind in the first place.

TSanae (or even vanilla) could probably run something like TWave/Extrasensory/Wish/Detect and do it far better than the TWave ASanae set I posted, though.


Quote from: Rhet
As someone who actually used Muddy Water ASanae for a while, I can honestly say that it did not pull up it's weight.
There were almost no situations where Surf would not have been more useful.
Did you try a Rain Dance set? Did you place your priority on paralyzing things?

Like I mentioned myself earlier, the accuracy drop doesn't really do much if it's not stacked with paralysis.
If you're just running TWave, though, then yeah, other Sanae forms can do it better with Extrasensory.
 





@Doesnt:
Quote from: Doesnt
You have a 54% (muddy water's accuracy is not ideal) chance of making the opponent's attacks have a 25% fail rate, meaning on the turn you use it you have a 13% chance of avoiding the foe's next attack. This is simply not worth trading 100% accuracy and roughly a sixth of Surf's BP to me- maybe in Doubles where you're smacking two things with it you could get more utility but just don't do it in Singles. And yes I know that 13% is an inaccurate representation over multiple turns but things tend not to stay in long anyway.

In the blahblahblahrainteam section, I mentioned this -
Quote from: Naļ
That's also why the percentuals on the other moves are significant, too: by themselves, they're not very strong, but the point is to stack them with paralysis, not use them by themselves.
Muddy Water isn't the first thing you'd use - I'd only bother with if after I managed to setup and paralyze things.

Besides, the accuracy drop doesn't really apply for only one turn, as you mentioned yourself. That's its advantage over flinch to begin with. If you get one going + paralysis, you could, I dunno, Wish on the next turn or something.

(Still, other Sanae forms could probably run a Wish set better than ASanae.)


Quote from: Doesnt
Where's the Silver Wind discussion? I know Serene Grace is cute but killing things dead is also nice and this move seems to be going ignored. It looks to me like Attack Sanae's main advantages over the very similar Futo are being a speed tier higher, having special Faith STAB, and a beefier SAtk stat- shouldn't we be taking advantage of these?
Sure thing. What would she run in that case, then? Would Aqua Shower be worth the effort, or is just running Surf better?

Either way, would you mind putting it as a set suggestion? Full SG-abuse ASanae is probably only really viable with Rain Dance (and even then I'm not too sure it's viable), so other options are very much appreciated, since I don't think she'd make too good of an anti-lead, like Josh had mentioned.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 06:05:43 PM by Naļ »

Offline Rhetco

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Re: Attack Sanae
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2013, 08:42:37 PM »
Alright, so I've used Nai's ASanae set a few times to see how it would work, and kept track of moments that I considered to be important.

In the first battle, she went up against a DKanako that lost 50% of it's health to Muddy Water, and had an accuracy drop. The DKanako then used Force Palm which managed to paralyze ASanae.
The DKanako then fainted due to Leech Seed and Toxic, which knocked off the remaining 15% of her health.
After doing calculations, I've learned that surf would have done around 60%, resulting in the exact same outcome. Aqua Shower would have OHKO'd since ASanae was above 80% health, and would have protected her from being paralyzed.

In the second battle, ASanae went up against an AMystia. Muddy Water took out 81% of it's health, and dropped AMystia's accuracy. She then retaliated with a Performance that knocked off 79% (since ASanae was affected by Heart's Eye earlier) of ASanae's HP, bringing her down to 6 HP.
This was another situation where Surf would have had the same outcome, but Aqua Shower would have OHKO'd, saving ASanae a ton of health.
HOWEVER, I feel I should mention that on the next turn she was hit by AChen's Heat Claw, which would have OHKO'd her no matter which move she had used on AMystia, meaning that all three of the moves would have lead to the same result.

In other tests ASanae didn't manage to do anything spectacular, and over all didn't feel as useful as her team mates.
With all this, as well as my past experiences using MW ASanae, I'd honestly say that Aqua Shower is the better choice, with Surf being an additional option if you don't think you can keep her healthy.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go hang myself or something because I hate making long forum posts and Shanks is already face-desking and we need to save his brain
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Offline Naļ

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Re: Attack Sanae
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2013, 11:08:06 PM »
Quote from: Naļ
Did you place your priority on paralyzing things?

Like I mentioned myself earlier, the accuracy drop doesn't really do much if it's not stacked with paralysis.
She has to somehow paralyze things (possibly having to switch out and back in the process) before bothering with Muddy Water in the first place. The point is how that'd be done, and if it'd be worth doing. Otherwise, Aqua Shower/Surf are better options.

At any rate, I appreciate that you bothered to test it. I really just want to try it out myself tho :<

And I still want to see Doesnt's ASanae set, it sounds interesting.

Offline joshcja

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Re: Attack Sanae
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2013, 11:13:39 PM »

Where's the Silver Wind discussion? I know Serene Grace is cute but killing things dead is also nice and this move seems to be going ignored. It looks to me like Attack Sanae's main advantages over the very similar Futo are being a speed tier higher, having special Faith STAB, and a beefier SAtk stat- shouldn't we be taking advantage of these?

120 BP vs 60% flinch 80 BP