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Messages - Naï

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16
Movesets / Re: [WIP]Attack Sanae
« on: August 22, 2013, 06:55:21 PM »
While I didn't have internet at home, I tested the Rain Dance/Muddy Water/Extrasensory/Thunder on cart, and, well... although I can't tell whether it's effective or not yet (it works on cart, but on Shoddy? no idea), I was able to determine that Muddy Water isn't worth it, after all.

Surf basically beat Muddy Water hands down, with or without Rain Dance.
Sigh. Oh well, guess I'll keep testing, then bring it to Shoddy later and see if it outperforms other sets.

17
Movesets / Re: [WIP]Nue
« on: August 22, 2013, 06:42:33 PM »
@Volt, if you feel like testing it and making it a dedicated set, then Shai's idea of Disable + SD is probably good, too, as well as the most viable SD set I've seen so far (and one that'd actually be worth running over other options). Maybe if you combine if with Subs?... dunno.

Oh, and @Shai:
Quote from: Shai
Does anything even run Gale?
Tenma

18
Movesets / Re: Chiyuri
« on: August 22, 2013, 06:25:14 PM »
Quote from: Josh
With rest + recycle chiyuri loses a whopping 2 moveslots. So if you want to keep hydro pump and roar you would need to sac both T wave AND spikes.
...Oh.
Lol, I was thinking about ATewi, who already runs Rest on a lot of sets anyway (in other words, I was thinking only one moveslot would be lost).



A Rest/Recycle/TWave/attack set doesn't sound too bad, though. Sure, it gives far less utility than the full support set, but it does have the advantages mentioned previously: survivability, more independence from her teammates... the most important benefit, though, is being able to actually work as a physical pivot with Intimidate and reliable recovery.

From there, she still retains her TWave support (which is, imho, her most important support feature, unless your team is super fast) while being able to hurt things when needed/not being Taunt bait. Not half bad for something with Intimidate + 90/70 phys bulk.

As for phazing/spiking, there are many other options for that... that and I don't see Chiyuri being able to set up Spikes too well without reliable recovery if there isn't Wish support, although Intimidate + Roar is a nice combo.



Bottom line: it's true that it's a different set altogether, since it focuses more on survivability and pivoting rather than support. However, I still think it's a valid set, since giving her actual, reliable recovery opens up new defensive possibilities, rather than being a strictly supportive mon.

19
Movesets / Re: [WIP]Nue
« on: August 22, 2013, 06:11:45 PM »
@Josh: ...I didn't know AReimu could Tailwind, nevermind all that then :<
And yeah, the antilead looks like it'd work well.



@Shanks: I don't think Steels are too big of a problem as long as you run *any* coverage move - sure, you can't stay in against them, but at least you aren't completely helpless. Youki/Youmu do completely stop her, though. Nue really really wants the other forms' Ghost coverage. They can both run Ghost/Steel, too, which... isn't it nearly perfect coverage? What resists both Ghost and Steel?

Still, if she does have that capability of drawing Steel-types towards her, that's not necessarily bad, you know? Just like running Mysterious. If you've seen their Steel and know it's coming, then that's good enough for luring, and Nue'll have done a good job~.



But yeah, Nue is probably not the best SD user ever, after all. The only SD set I can see consistently differentiating itself from things like Tailwind AReimu is the Disable + SD one, and even then, it does rely a lot on prediction and surprise.

20
Movesets / Re: Chiyuri
« on: August 22, 2013, 06:01:42 PM »
Sure, but you do have to agree that it does give her reliable recovery, like Wish + Detect. I'd at least list it as an option. Besides, it's not like it's gimmicky or anything: you lose a moveslot, and in exchange you gain some independence from your teammates, as well as a lot more durability... sounds like a good deal to me.



Oh, okay. Momiji does sound better at it.

That doesn't mean they aren't an option, although that's admittedly gimmicky already. Ice Punch could be worth a try.

Yeah, I don't think the Rain Dance set'll ever see much good use, either. It's probably better if you remove it, then mention why you chose to remove it and such (as a way to tell people not to run it, perhaps).

21
Movesets / Re: Attack Tewi
« on: August 22, 2013, 05:35:02 PM »
Quote from: Josh
I do not give 2 shits about grammar as long as the post has a decent overall flow and contains all necessary information. If any section is really ascetically unpleasant feel free to pm me with corrections and I'll throw them in.
The grammar is alright for the most part. Like I mentioned myself, there are some minor mistakes, but they're not too significant for the post's flow.

The thing about grammar is just that, since the movesets and the wiki will soon start being linked, Shanks (it was Shanks, right?) wanted the pages to look a little more professional. It's something that should be fixed eventually - if not by you, then by someone else, since the errors are simple - but it's not a big priority.



Quote from: Josh
Energy ball can OHKO ASuwako and can pick off a weakened Konngara plus some people are lucky enough to use it.
Okay, but my point is that you should probably take what you just told me and slap it somewhere in your post. Otherwise, the readers will be confused, and nobody'll be reading the comments section :<



Quote from: Josh
A tewi is diverse enough that the options section would be ridiculously clunky if I went into more detail. Options are options you make them for a specific team because you need em. Same deal for support, A Tewi can pick and chose her counters to an extent thanks to her absolutely MASSIVE coverage pool, so a broad summary is all that's really needed.
I see your point; still, I think this'd fall under the same case of how the Counters section should be done. If there are too many counters, of course you aren't going to make a list of every single mon, but listing the most notable ones is still helpful and worthwhile without cluttering the post, right?

That should apply to the Options section too, imho. Of course there are too many options to begin with, but I think the description you provided is too broad as it is. Even if there are too many viable sets, that doesn't mean there aren't any specific notable moves.

You might want to point out Toxic and Encore, for example, and briefly explain what sets they'd go in and how you'd use them. After that, just stick to the broad description. That way, the post becomes more informative without anything getting cluttered.

22
Teambuilding / Re: A Rin Happy Hour
« on: August 22, 2013, 10:11:07 AM »
So you're saying you wouldn't just rush in for that 4x weakness? That's what I was expecting, and that was one of the points of all the calculations in the first place :<

I could start talking about slowpass if it was about getting AKeine in cleanly, but whatever



The point is... a defensive core is meant to be dependable, you know? It's what you switch into when the opposing team is running wild and you need to stop their momentum.

Of course your team has to cover for the core. However, the point of the core being there is that it's hard to bring down by itself. Like that, you can invest the rest of your team's resources in offense/support/whatever. It does mean that you kill more, and that's wonderful, but it also makes the rest of your team fragile.

To compensate for that, you need a core on which you can depend defensively.
In other words, if you have to depend on the rest of the team to stop a single puppet, then that's not a defensive core.



Of course what you're saying works when you do have a full 6 options against a single puppet. But that's ASSUMING it's early game, and ASSUMING you DO have those full 6 options, which you most likely WON'T, considering most of those options are comprised of mons specialized in offense. They can only cover for so long, they're not walls or anything.

Then, if both you and your opponent get into late game... usually, in a more or less equal game, the case will be that both you and your opponent will have your cores still alive (if not, then you're already screwed), as well as one revenge-killer around or a similar late-game mon.

I don't see the need for perfect prediction anywhere. From there, it's clear that your core might have a weakness it can't manage by itself... and the very definition of "defensive core" makes that a problem.

23
Movesets / Re: Attack Tewi
« on: August 22, 2013, 09:56:26 AM »
Natural Cure + Rest stop being so awesome what is this how did I remember about Rest + Recycle + Chesto and forget about this

Either way, this is pretty good, too. It's definitely more organized than the other WIPs (though not as good as SYamame's), and it honestly taught me a lot about ATewi I had never thought before, like actually using her as a spinner or running Cute Charm on the Sub/CM set.

Still, this does need a little work (other than minor grammar mistakes and such), so I'll make a few suggestions myself, if you don't mind. Please bear in mind that they're only suggestions, at any rate, but I hope the feedback is at least helpful.







First things first. I understand why you'd run Surf/Energy Light (to cover for Fire/Water, respectively), but, even then, you could have explained it in a more clear way, I think. I honestly thought you hadn't mentioned it at all on my first read.

Also, why would you consider Energy Ball? It hits Steels super-effectively for the Rapid Spin set, but isn't Earth Power far better at that, considering its accuracy?

You talked a lot about annoying Yumemis, but you seem to have forgotten to actually mention her as a counter in the Counters section(s). Isn't she pretty much a hard stop to any ATewi only running Binding Voice/Ice Beam? And even though that's only because of Soundproof, shouldn't you actually mention Soundproof itself as a check to most ATewis?



You should probably mention that it's best to run Yang (female) ATewi on the Sub/CM set, since most people just don't care about the Yin/Yang and just leave it as the default Yin - meaning Yin is the most common gender you'd go up against.

Also, the Options section might need some work. It's probably best to explicit what moves you're talking about, how'd their mix with other sets, and how/why they'd be considered in the first place. She could probably run Encore or Disable on a dedicated lure set, for example, as well as Toxic if you need status, Taunt in the lead position/for stallbreaking... etc.

What I mean is just that, since I have at least a little Touhoumon knowledge, those options can be seen at first glance just by looking on her wiki page, but it might not be the case for people new to Touhoumon who happen to stumble upon your movesets.







Other than that... nothing much. Flash Fire Futo (FFF) could get a special mention on the Support section since she's both immune to fire and 4x resistant to water; in fact, she probably makes a great partner for most Beast types. Even Torrent Futo works, though an immunity is better than a 4x resistance.

And uh, something that can cover Yumemi decently? I have no idea myself though.

Maybe running a slightly more defensive EV spread with a more supportive set could work - aren't ATewi and Tewi the only ones who can actually use Natural Cure + Rest and benefit from it? Ellen COULD, but someone apparently decided to nerf her because she was too powerful - perhaps that same Spin/Rest/Binding Voice/Ice Beam set, just with those SAtk EVs placed somewhere else (perhaps in HP and Def).

115 base SAtk with near perfect neutral coverage should be more than enough for you to be able to hurt things while actually having good defensive presence... but then again, theorymon. I honestly need to make a list of sets I want/need to test, lol.

And I could've sworn ATewi had Nasty Plot

24
Teambuilding / Re: A Rin Happy Hour
« on: August 22, 2013, 09:08:44 AM »
Quote from: Josh
Remember to burn suika in those calcs :p
And then suddenly wisp misses, HEirin dies and you lose the battle :<
theorymon
nah, i actually used HEirin for quite a while before switching to DHina



But seriously, HEirin's probably not the best answer ever to physical Earths, even though you could manage if you manage to burn them. The risk of you plain losing that battle is rather big considering we're talking about a defensive core, which is supposed to hold against even critical hits, let alone wisp misses.

Earths can still revenge kill you or switch into a Poison Bomb without any trouble, as long as they can do something before HEirin Aqua Showers her face (Rock Bullet and AKeine come to mind). If they bring her HP down first thing, and if that HP drop is considerable, she's in a pretty tough spot, because:
  • if she got hit before Aqua Showering, the attack won't be enough to OHKO, and may even be tanked;
  • if she tried to burn and got hit before doing so, she'll get rather hurt and be forced to Recover - even worse if the burn actually misses.
Either way, she's forced to Recover afterwards, but she risks dying before doing so.
Thankfully, HEirin is quite fast, so this shouldn't happen too often, but that doesn't mean things like AKeine can't check it if they come in after something dies, or if something lacking a 4x weakness comes in against PBomb.







You're probably thinking that you'll just OHKO AKeine with Aqua Shower, but... not really. Yeah, time to test out that damage calculator.
  • Banded Jolly 252 Atk/252 Spd AKeine Head Smash vs Bold 252 Def HEirin: 108~127% - guaranteed OHKO
  • Sports Sweater Jolly 252 Atk/252 Spd AKeine Head Smash vs same HEirin: 85.98~101.66% - 12.5% OHKO chance; 87.5% OHKO chance after Spikes; guaranteed OHKO after two layers of Spikes
  • Lum Berry same AKeine EarthQuake vs same HEirin: 60.33~71.25% - guaranteed 2HKO

So yeah, I don't think a defensive core that kind of... dies to a single banded mon is the most solid core ever.



But let's say Spikes weren't around and AKeine wasn't banded: in that case, AKeine gets Aqua Shower in the face, and then she dies, right? Not really. That's the point of switching in AKeine to begin with - even if she doesn't OHKO, she weakens HEirin enough that Aqua Shower isn't an OHKO anymore.

Moar damage calculations.
  • Aqua Shower from Bold 22 SAtk HEirin at 14.02% HP (best-case scenario for HEirin against Sweater Head Smash) vs Jolly 4 HP AKeine: 42.3~50% - 0.39% chance of 2HKOing; 75% 2HKO chance after one layer of Spikes
  • Aqua Shower from same HEirin at 39.67% HP (best-case scenario for HEirin against Lum EQ) vs same AKeine: 111.53~132.05% - guaranteed OHKO
  • Aqua Shower from same HEirin at 28.75% HP (worst-case scenario for HEirin against Lum EQ) vs same AKeine: 82.05~97.43% - guaranteed 2HKO; 62.05% OHKO chance after one layer of Spikes
Bottom line: if AKeine's running Rock Head, you lose even if she isn't banded. If AKeine's running Band + Intimidate, she wins, too, since EQ'd do a minimum of 89.78% in this case, leaving HEirin at less HP than what Sweater Head Smash's minimum damage'd leave her with.







Do note that even though AKeine was the main example, any other Earth type faster than you could threaten you just as well and not care about the Aqua Shower that's coming afterwards. I just used AKeine as a primary example because, well, if something without any defenses worth mentioning can come in on you, not care about a 4x weakness and win, then something is seriously wrong here.

Non-Earth strong physical attackers could give you some trouble, as well, especially if they're something like a Guts resttalker or a Fire-type (Burn Powder doesn't burn Fire-types, it just burns non-Fire Flash Fire users, mainly Futo).

And I'm not too sure how effective Leech Seed is on DDai, but you really might want to consider Detect instead, considering she's an essential part of the defensive core. Wish isn't reliable recovery by itself, really.

Well, just my two cents, either way.

25
Movesets / Re: Please read before posting a thread in this section.
« on: August 22, 2013, 08:36:04 AM »
I was aware of the function; it's just that I was reluctant to use it because of security and all, but since my current browser settings wouldn't keep me logged in after I close the browser anyway, it's probably okay to use it. Saves me trouble.

Either way, since I spam that good n' old preview function, all I had to do without the "keep logged in" thing was ask the browser to resend the info, so everything would be safe for the most part - unless I didn't try using preview, but that's limited to shorter posts, which are not too much trouble to rewrite.

26
Shoddy Touhoumon Info/Discussion / Re: Touhoumon Damage Calc
« on: August 22, 2013, 08:12:31 AM »
Uh, quick question... does it use the Gen V damage formula? (as seen in the credits, at least)
If so, wouldn't it actually require changing it to the Gen III one instead?

Either way, in case it does need to be changed, here's the formula:
Quote
Damage = ((L * 2 + 10)/250 * (A / D) * B + 2) * M

L - Level of the attacking Pokémon.

A - Attack of the attacking Pokémon.

D - Defense of the defending Pokémon.

B - The base damage of the attack.

M - Any damage modifiers. M is calculated as follows:

Modifier = STAB * T * C * O * (rand ∈ [0.85, 1.00])

STAB - Same-type attack bonus. Value is 1.5 if the Pokémon gets STAB, 1 otherwise.

T - Type effectiveness. Value can be 0, 0.25, 0.5, 1, 2, or 4.

C - Critical hit. 2 if the attack lands a critical hit, 1 otherwise.

O - Other. Things like weather, held items, ect.

Rand - Random number between 0.85 and 1.00.
Ripped from http://wiki.pokemon-online.eu/wiki/Damage_formula.



EDIT: also, small nitpicking on the Item section: Choice Band -> Choice Ribbon.
Putting the boosted type for each type-boosting item between brackets (as done in Shoddy) might be helpful, too, if you wouldn't mind.

27
Movesets / Re: Speed Yamame
« on: August 22, 2013, 07:57:54 AM »
Wow man, this is pretty good compared to your other WIPs. It's a clear, easy read, and most of the stuff Shanks'd nag about point out as in need of bettering has already been taken care of.

I have an objection, though: Pursuit isn't the most underused move in the game, that's Haze by far

And eh, other than that the only thing I can see right off the bat that could use a little improvement would be some minor grammar mistakes. Either way, the set is not only perfectly readable, but very easy to read as it is.

28
Movesets / Re: [WIP]Nue
« on: August 22, 2013, 07:48:07 AM »
Quote from: Josh
Walls in this game have to deal with SD Youki dude, 95 is piss poor.
That's if you only consider atk/spd stats. Remember that Youki has about as much bulk as Mimi-chan... well no, it's not that bad, but it'll die pretty quickly at any rate. Anything that runs at least a half-decent attack stat will kill it, and it doesn't even need to be a wall, in fact: a bulky attacker will suffice if it's bulky enough, really... and yet, that doesn't hold true for Nue.
Quote from: Josh
You left out Yumeko, Rika, Youmu, and Attack Suwako.
I wasn't really making a hard counter list, I was giving examples... there's a reason I said "for example" in the first place :<

But yeah, I get your point, yes, Steels ARE a problem, lol. There's no denying that, especially since she has no good coverage move for them.
Quote from: Josh
252 Atk Special Bloomers Mimi-chan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nue: 354-417 (109.93 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Oh, okay. If the numbers are that high, then even Gothic Lolita Mimi-chan probably has a good chance of an OHKO after some Brave Bird recoil.







Quote from: Josh
Best case scenario is that Nue stays in and dies. Thats a bad best case scenario
Oh, lol

Eh, if you know AdReisen's gonna sub, you could just Brave Bird and break her sub anyway - from there she'll probably feel the need to Mana Burst you, which is when you immediately switch out, but that does require a lot of prediction.
Quote from: Josh
That would fall under the role of antilead more than stallbreaker
That's true for Kotohime, but Gengetsu doesn't really like running the lead position.
Still, would you mind making a quick antilead set for reference?



Quote from: Josh
bat learns nasty plot and has a huge special movepool (nobody uses it though cause 90ish base is terrible even after a boost) but tbh Nue is functionally crobat with slightly better bulk and no U turn
Oh, okay.
Well, if you ask me, Nasty Plot Crobat isn't a thing because it's got no good means to setup in the first place, what with those defenses, but eh, who am I to talk about Pokemon.

Nue's bulk isn't just "slightly better", that level of bulk is bulky bird bulk, you know? That's enough to tank/stall already with investment, as long as it's not things like, uh, APatchy or 4x supereffective hits.







Quote from: Josh
I actually ran SD Nue a lot just because she was in standard suspects when I first joined lol, she never really did much.
Long and well written OP is long and well written, but like the yukari post it seems to be heavily based on in game play rather than competitive play, SD Nue is pretty sweet in game and can do a lot of work, its just terrible in competitive play.
Then I could argue that it was when you first joined so you didn't know that much about Touhoumon and blahblahblah and more words, but eh, that'd just be nitpicking so I'll stop already.

Also,
Quote from: Josh
Off the top of my head...

A Reimu
T Aya
Wriggle
Hatate

All out preform SD Nue as flying sweepers.
AReimu's and TAya's better performance is simply because they don't depend on setups, so yeah, besides Flying/Dream being pseudo boltbeam :< Wriggle has enough Spd for Tailwinding well, and Hatate has, uh, good coverage?

However, do keep in mind that a neutral hit from fully invested +2 Nue should hurt more than one from AReimu and TAya, as well as more than a +1 Wriggle neutral hit; also, fully invested Nue is faster than both AReimu and Hatate by quite a lot, so it's not all black and white.

29
Movesets / Re: Speed Aya
« on: August 22, 2013, 07:10:36 AM »
Offensive BPass aya sounds very, very scary even without Speed Boost, you know.

Try putting Tailwind on something with 140 base Spd, 105 base Atk and an attack combination that's only resisted by, uh... 6 out of 394 (was it 394?) puppets counting Marisa and Kirisame. For the record, even a -Spd uninvested SAya outspeeds Jolly Mimi-chan at +1. That means you can just run Adamant and 252 Atk/252 HP/4 something, then proceed to punching holes in the opponent's team.

...and then give it Baton Pass to actually be able to get out safely (for the most part) after punching a hole in the opponent's team AND keep your momentum while you're at it!



Sounds perfectly balanced to me! No, not really. In fact, not at ALL.

Anything that can both sweep by itself with a setup and get out with Baton Pass when things seem bad (think SKomachi) is dangerous, but the fact that SAya'd outrun everything with no Spd EVs and her dreaded Flying/Dream combination doesn't really help much.



Yes, Yumeko/Blade Flash thingies/priority in general counters it, but then every team in the game would be forced to use one of those, therefore limiting a lot the metagame. That's the definition of overpowered. Well at least it's not as bad as Tenma's case, which has literally NO hard counters...

...of course, we'd have to actually test her out to be able to determine whether an Own Tempo SAya would be OP or not, but really, from what Theorymon can determine, yes, she would be pretty damn imbalanced.

30
Movesets / Re: Chiyuri
« on: August 22, 2013, 07:00:33 AM »
Running Restochesto could actually be considered "reliable recovery" for Chiyuri, considering she gets Recycle. With that, she can be far less reliant on her teammates for recovery. It'd be equivalent to running Wish + Detect or Resttalk. (Why is Rest + Recycle so underrated, really?)







Agility does have the benefit of allowing you to run Intimidate. The ability does cause a lot of switches, so you might get free set-ups. This is another set I've gotten curious about qq

Discharge could be an option if you care more about hurting than paralyzing. It's special Wind-type Body Slam, which takes care of opposing Water types.

And uh, she has Light Screen if you want to try your luck, I guess? Dunno, maybe force a physical threat out by Intimidating, then screening when a special attacker comes in? Or it could work if she ran 252 SDef... I don't know, really.







Her physical movepool is not good enough that she'd have enough to run a full physical set, but it IS enough to run a pretty decent mixed support set.

Psycho Cut, for one, isn't bad. People seem to keep forgetting that the 70 BP comes with a huge 25% crit chance, which, if you do a lot of random math, is equivalent to approximately 82.35 BP with the normal 6.25% critical; and that's accounting for criticals as 2x damage, since they actually seem to deal a bit more than that considering they ignore defenses... not bad at all, you know?

All hail gen III crit moves

Other than that, weren't you annoyed by Natures earlier? She does get Ice Punch as coverage against them, as well as Thunderpunch if Waters annoy you instead (and you don't want to just run Discharge for some reason). Those should be more than enough options to consider a mixed, uninvested support set. Of course, there's always Return.

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