Touhou Puppet Play Forums

Touhou Puppet Play => Creative Conundrum => Topic started by: Rejnka on April 19, 2015, 10:15:44 PM

Title: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: Rejnka on April 19, 2015, 10:15:44 PM
Hello, persons. Today, I am trying to start a community hack. I can't do any deep end stuff, but I will try to be a good leader for this project.

Basically, this is taking community ideas and making it a hack.

Below is our "in discussion ideas"
Spoiler
  • Status will wear off, and the wearoff can be delayed by getting the status again.
  • Begone, permanent weather! Instead, the same event that triggered it boosts it (Note: Possibly it is permanent as long as a puppet with a weather ability is out?)
  • Windy stuff. Flying is now Wind and old-Wind is now electric, with various stuff tweaked to match.
  • Hidden Force. Good ol' Hidden Force.
  • Less annoying HMs. Forgetting them, item replacements, maybe both?
  • Fog! Ghost/Dark weather, gives Dark moves perfect accuracy, Ghosts get 50% Defense, abilities will happen, Ghost-Type Weather Ball, and weakened SolarBeam and Synthesis!
  • Crits that do 1.5x damage and not 2x.

Hall of rejects. May they R.I.P. in kill.
Spoiler
  • lol crit meter
  • Statused damage is now 75% normal and not 50% normal

Below is random stuff I'm proposing and will likely happen if not countered with another idea
Spoiler
Original region, with it being the only area in the world with Touhoumons (likely called Bonéka like in World Link and stuff) as the rest of the world has Pokémon in it.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: ZXNova on April 19, 2015, 10:37:53 PM
Some ideas I have:

- No Perma Weather
- Weather would no longer be permanent, but would instead have some useful things.
Berries that activate a weather when you are in a pinch.
Moves that prolong a corresponding weather, but will come with consequences if used incorrectly.

- Less random critical hits
Crits would be controlled by a meter. Once the meter hits a certain point (Let's say 40%), then there would be a corresponding chance of a crit happening. The crit damage is also affected by the crit meter. At a crit meter of 40%, it the damage dealt will be maximum damage x 1.4. It would only ever be a 2x crit at 100%.
Certain abilities and moves would affect the crit meter as well. Like Sniper would at .25 to the current crit meter, making a maximum crit be 2.25x. Super Luck would increase it faster.
The crit meter will increase slower the more prolonged a battle between two puppets ago. You must switch out in order for the crit meter to fill faster.

-Secondary effects
Instead of secondary effects being completely random, it would have a sorta meter as well. The more the move is used, the higher likelyhood of the status happening. So let's say T-bolt has a 10% chance of paralysis, the more you use it, the higher chances of paralysis it gets. It can go up to 20% after a certain amount of times.
High chance moves would not be affected as much.

-Statuses no longer permanent
Each status will have a general amount of turns it will last. Toxic would be the longest lasting status.
Upon switching out, the timer will stop, but it will not reset.
Maybe have some moves that can extend the status timer.
Status length will also depend on your typing as well. For instance, an earth type will not be poisoned as long as a electric type.

- Natures
No more negative natures. Pull a TPDP and have natures only have a positive effect.

- Hidden Power
Make a phyiscal variant of hidden power. Call it Hidden Force.
The damage dealt will be 60/65.
The type of hidden power the character gets will depend on what elements hit them neutral. For instance the only elements that hit Kaguya neutral are reason, steel, and miasma. So those are the only hidden powers she can achieve.
Puppets that can learn special effect moves (i.e. freeze dry) will not be able to learn hidden power/force.

- Hidden Machine
Hidden Machine skills will be in their own seperate slot. No more suffering.

- A new weather, Fog
Dark type attacks will have perfect accuracy.
Nether/Ghost types will have a 50% increase in defense.
Weather Ball will become a Nether/Ghost move and deals 2x more damage.
Solarbeam/Synthesis will weaken.
Corresponding abilities will become active.

- Wind/Electric patch
Have Twister be Defog (but gets rid of all obstacles on both sides)
Electric Rapid Spin will be called Repel.

- Rename Wind to Electric, rename Flying to Wind.
But you would probably have to change a lot of stuff.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: SoulfulLex on April 19, 2015, 10:46:19 PM
I'd probably be down with making a Town Map / Region-making, but that'd probably depend on the game's Story / Plot.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: Rejnka on April 19, 2015, 10:52:55 PM
I'd probably be down with making a Town Map / Region-making, but that'd probably depend on the game's Story / Plot.
Good to know, even if it will only come into play later.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: Neotornado on April 19, 2015, 10:54:20 PM
I'll be up for tedious stuff like stat-editing and wild-editing, but don't expect anything too spectacular, since I don't even know how to use ASM myself.

also, speaking of fog, how about we make hail increase both defensive stats on ice-types by a small amount? Something like 10% or 20% (also, shouldn't ghost-types get the perfect accuracy since it's more of a ghost-ish weather? the only thing it's doing for dark is with giga impact/hyper beam, neither one of which make sense to get boosted in fog)

As for the crit/secondary effects editor, I'd be up for it but it sounds like an absolute nightmare to implement in a gen III ROM, if we are going that direction.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: Elyk on April 19, 2015, 10:56:09 PM
Dynamic level scaling. Grinding in pokemon games is ridiculously overpowered. It breaks the difficulty curve when you can just spend some time to train your party in the grass to be able to beat the next leader. I think that there should be something that reads your party's highest level and then sets the enemy leader's party to be 10 (or however many levels you think are good(maybe like 25 levels for E4)) levels above it.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: Rejnka on April 19, 2015, 11:00:40 PM
I'll be up for tedious stuff like stat-editing and wild-editing, but don't expect anything too spectacular, since I don't even know how to use ASM myself.

also, speaking of fog, how about we make hail increase both defensive stats on ice-types by a small amount? Something like 10% or 20% (also, shouldn't ghost-types get the perfect accuracy since it's more of a ghost-ish weather? the only thing it's doing for dark is with giga impact/hyper beam, neither one of which make sense to get boosted in fog)

As for the crit/secondary effects editor, I'd be up for it but it sounds like an absolute nightmare to implement in a gen III ROM, if we are going that direction.

Also good to know.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: Rejnka on April 19, 2015, 11:08:11 PM
Dynamic level scaling. Grinding in pokemon games is ridiculously overpowered. It breaks the difficulty curve when you can just spend some time to train your party in the grass to be able to beat the next leader. I think that there should be something that reads your party's highest level and then sets the enemy leader's party to be 10 (or however many levels you think are good(maybe like 25 levels for E4)) levels above it.

OUT! School PRISON! Seriously though, bad difficulty curve cancer.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: ZXNova on April 19, 2015, 11:12:47 PM
I'll be up for tedious stuff like stat-editing and wild-editing, but don't expect anything too spectacular, since I don't even know how to use ASM myself.

also, speaking of fog, how about we make hail increase both defensive stats on ice-types by a small amount? Something like 10% or 20% (also, shouldn't ghost-types get the perfect accuracy since it's more of a ghost-ish weather? the only thing it's doing for dark is with giga impact/hyper beam, neither one of which make sense to get boosted in fog)

As for the crit/secondary effects editor, I'd be up for it but it sounds like an absolute nightmare to implement in a gen III ROM, if we are going that direction.

I think all ghost type moves have perfect accuracy. So it would make no sense for ghost type moves to gain perfect accuracy.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: Rejnka on April 19, 2015, 11:17:34 PM
I'll be up for tedious stuff like stat-editing and wild-editing, but don't expect anything too spectacular, since I don't even know how to use ASM myself.

also, speaking of fog, how about we make hail increase both defensive stats on ice-types by a small amount? Something like 10% or 20% (also, shouldn't ghost-types get the perfect accuracy since it's more of a ghost-ish weather? the only thing it's doing for dark is with giga impact/hyper beam, neither one of which make sense to get boosted in fog)

As for the crit/secondary effects editor, I'd be up for it but it sounds like an absolute nightmare to implement in a gen III ROM, if we are going that direction.

I think all ghost type moves have perfect accuracy. So it would make no sense for ghost type moves to gain perfect accuracy.
lel screech
also evasion boosts and such.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: ZXNova on April 19, 2015, 11:38:37 PM
Evasion boosts should not be considered.

And for Nether/Ghost to have perfect acc just for that and 'screech' is pointless.

Dark is an offensive typing, with many powerful moves that don't have perfect accuracy. (Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Outrage) and by making them have perfect acc, it makes the weather strong for dark types.

So seriously, I don't even see why this would be argued.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: Rejnka on April 19, 2015, 11:43:29 PM
Evasion boosts should not be considered.

And for Nether/Ghost to have perfect acc just for that and 'screech' is pointless.

Dark is an offensive typing, with many powerful moves that don't have perfect accuracy. (Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Outrage) and by making them have perfect acc, it makes the weather strong for dark types.

So seriously, I don't even see why this would be argued.

Fine. Meanie.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: DerxwnaKapsyla on April 20, 2015, 12:01:20 AM
I'm going to state first and foremost that a community hack is not a bad idea, but there are several things to take into account when making one. One of the big ones is the following: If you cannot offer anything to the table at all, except a vague idea of what you want, then you really shouldn't propose a group hack - if anything it becomes more like "I want people to make this game for me while I sit back and tell people what to do." That's not a community hack. Based on your opening post alone, I highly suggest reevaluating what exactly it is you want. A leader is one who sets the bar and lives up to it, not the one who places the bar and says "Impress me".

Going over the individual ideas, some of them are very outlandish, if not impossible without knowing gratuitous amounts of ASM to make them work. If you or anyone else working on it is not willing to learn ASM, then there's no point discussing heavy mechanic changes, such as those proposed for the Critical Hit system. Anything with a meter suggestion would require massive overhauls to the game engine itself. If you have no idea how to do that, then you're stuck with using the default RNG-based System (Personal opinion, removing the RNG from Pokemon would just make it Yet Another Stale And Repetitive RPG).

The other thing I want to bring up is the Hidden Move suggestion. That's probably completely impossible unless you're willing to learn ASM. If you're not, there is a much simpler solution of creating HM Items/Exploration Items (Such as an Axe/Boat/Lantern/Etc) which can take the places of such moves. You can also take the route that Unnamed did and make HM moves forgettable in the field. I don't know how DoesntKnowHowToPlay did it, but I'm sure he'd be willing to direct you on a place where you could learn how to do it.

One last bit of advice; while I may not be a board moderator, I highly suggest avoiding Double Posting in the future if you're replying to two different posts with a barely substantial reply. Unless your next post has massive informative news, edit your first post accordingly next time.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: ZXNova on April 20, 2015, 12:13:51 AM
Well the other idea I had was if it isn't possible, just change crits to 1.5x. I forgot to put that in my first post.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: Rejnka on April 20, 2015, 12:18:46 AM
I'm going to state first and foremost that a community hack is not a bad idea, but there are several things to take into account when making one. One of the big ones is the following: If you cannot offer anything to the table at all, except a vague idea of what you want, then you really shouldn't propose a group hack - if anything it becomes more like "I want people to make this game for me while I sit back and tell people what to do." That's not a community hack. Based on your opening post alone, I highly suggest reevaluating what exactly it is you want. A leader is one who sets the bar and lives up to it, not the one who places the bar and says "Impress me".

Going over the individual ideas, some of them are very outlandish, if not impossible without knowing gratuitous amounts of ASM to make them work. If you or anyone else working on it is not willing to learn ASM, then there's no point discussing heavy mechanic changes, such as those proposed for the Critical Hit system. Anything with a meter suggestion would require massive overhauls to the game engine itself. If you have no idea how to do that, then you're stuck with using the default RNG-based System (Personal opinion, removing the RNG from Pokemon would just make it Yet Another Stale And Repetitive RPG).

The other thing I want to bring up is the Hidden Move suggestion. That's probably completely impossible unless you're willing to learn ASM. If you're not, there is a much simpler solution of creating HM Items/Exploration Items (Such as an Axe/Boat/Lantern/Etc) which can take the places of such moves. You can also take the route that Unnamed did and make HM moves forgettable in the field. I don't know how DoesntKnowHowToPlay did it, but I'm sure he'd be willing to direct you on a place where you could learn how to do it.

One last bit of advice; while I may not be a board moderator, I highly suggest avoiding Double Posting in the future if you're replying to two different posts with a barely substantial reply. Unless your next post has massive informative news, edit your first post accordingly next time.

 Welp. Again, I put them insane ideas on the discussion slate, well, because people wanted them, and they wouldn't make the game outright worse. Since most people don't want the Crit Bar, it's time to say goodbye to that idea.

Oh, and I agree with you on HMs and such.

Well the other idea I had was if it isn't possible, just change crits to 1.5x. I forgot to put that in my first post.

Oh, yeah, totally. Best idea, 8/8, no h8. Sincerely.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: Spyro on April 20, 2015, 03:20:11 AM

Adding some more trade evolutions to puppets could be a neat idea. They could allow for some unique puppets that either wouldn't fit as a shard evolution or could be used for the bonus of adding new puppets to your hack without it interfering with
the continuity of the current shard evolutions.

The List:

Meiling -> Lie Meiling (Evil Meiling from the future from a fan work, would be similar to Alice -> Dark Alice.)
Sakuya -> Inu Sakuya (sometimes labeled as "WSakuya.")
Remilia and Flandre -> "Scarlets" A sisters duo like Aki Sisters.
Lunasa, Lyrica, and Merlin -> "Prismrivers" this is actually a puppet in some unofficial JP patches.
Ichirin -> Solo Unzan

If you choose to add DDC characters, Benben and Yatsuhashi -> Tsukumos.


That's just a couple ideas I have floating around.




Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: ZXNova on April 20, 2015, 05:34:39 AM
Die in a fire for suggesting Inu Sakuya. :^(

Jokes aside, everything else seems cool. You could also have a Yuuka form called KJYuuka (Konjaku Yuuka) which literally means 'Past and Present' Yuuka. You can probably guess how the form looks.

I've came up with all of these ideas so quickly is because I've been thinking up these ideas for a while now. I have an entire spreadsheet of these ideas and more... but I won't show you it now. Still finishing it up first.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: Neotornado on April 20, 2015, 06:02:53 AM
I don't know what ZXNova's saying I wouldn't say no to Inu Sakuya. (although it'd typing would confuse me. beast/steel? beast/reason? beast/ice?) She'd probably get a massive re-stating though compared to whatever she had in the various hacks she appears in.
As for the other puppets, I feel like Lie Meiling's more of a shiny pallet then anything. Maybe she could be like a scripted encounter, a normal Meiling forced shiny with a dark move that Meiling dosen't normally get? the other ideas aren't bad, but if you want a pair suggestion, why not a Mystia/Kyouko puppet? I know there's a sprite for it floating around out there.

Also to bring up something for way earlier, OH HELL NO on the anti-grinding idea elyk mentioned. I know we could use some sort of anti-griding but I don't think it should be THAT extreme. scaling gym leaders based on your own levels would defeat the whole point of engaging in non-important battles IMO. (well, outside of catching more pokemon/removing roadblocks)
I'd say a good way to curb it is to either use B2/W2's EXP system or modify it so that wild pokemon simply give out NO exp if you are a certain level higher then them. (trainer pokemon still give out normal EXP since you can't really "grind" off them, vs. seeker aside) That way you can still "grind" but there's a clear level-limit that can be defined. There will still be overgrinding for the people who like their emulators running at 1000% or don't mind the tedium, but that's unavoidable in any RPG. unless you are paper mario sticker star, and well, look how that turned out.

One last thing is that I personally recommend we go with "puppets" and not "Bonéka" since, to be honest, I kinda have a bias against that word since I mentally associate it with achiya's stuff... not to mention that "puppet/puppets" just sounds a lot smoother to me.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: Rejnka on April 21, 2015, 01:03:30 AM

Adding some more trade evolutions to puppets could be a neat idea. They could allow for some unique puppets that either wouldn't fit as a shard evolution or could be used for the bonus of adding new puppets to your hack without it interfering with
the continuity of the current shard evolutions.

The List:

Meiling -> Lie Meiling (Evil Meiling from the future from a fan work, would be similar to Alice -> Dark Alice.)
Sakuya -> Inu Sakuya (sometimes labeled as "WSakuya.")
Remilia and Flandre -> "Scarlets" A sisters duo like Aki Sisters.
Lunasa, Lyrica, and Merlin -> "Prismrivers" this is actually a puppet in some unofficial JP patches.
Ichirin -> Solo Unzan

If you choose to add DDC characters, Benben and Yatsuhashi -> Tsukumos.


That's just a couple ideas I have floating around.

I'm not too big a fan of the "pairs" idea. Lie, Inu Sakuya, and Solo Unzan are chill, though. Smacking that on the list.

I don't know what ZXNova's saying I wouldn't say no to Inu Sakuya. (although it'd typing would confuse me. beast/steel? beast/reason? beast/ice?) She'd probably get a massive re-stating though compared to whatever she had in the various hacks she appears in.
As for the other puppets, I feel like Lie Meiling's more of a shiny pallet then anything. Maybe she could be like a scripted encounter, a normal Meiling forced shiny with a dark move that Meiling dosen't normally get? the other ideas aren't bad, but if you want a pair suggestion, why not a Mystia/Kyouko puppet? I know there's a sprite for it floating around out there.

Also to bring up something for way earlier, OH HELL NO on the anti-grinding idea elyk mentioned. I know we could use some sort of anti-griding but I don't think it should be THAT extreme. scaling gym leaders based on your own levels would defeat the whole point of engaging in non-important battles IMO. (well, outside of catching more pokemon/removing roadblocks)
I'd say a good way to curb it is to either use B2/W2's EXP system or modify it so that wild pokemon simply give out NO exp if you are a certain level higher then them. (trainer pokemon still give out normal EXP since you can't really "grind" off them, vs. seeker aside) That way you can still "grind" but there's a clear level-limit that can be defined. There will still be overgrinding for the people who like their emulators running at 1000% or don't mind the tedium, but that's unavoidable in any RPG. unless you are paper mario sticker star, and well, look how that turned out.

One last thing is that I personally recommend we go with "puppets" and not "Bonéka" since, to be honest, I kinda have a bias against that word since I mentally associate it with achiya's stuff... not to mention that "puppet/puppets" just sounds a lot smoother to me.

How, exactly, are you confused on the typing of Inu-Sakuya? It's rather clearly gonna be Steel-Beast. Lie Meiling Is SO not gonna be "just a shiny", is Dark Alice just a shiny? No she ISN'T, so neither should Lie be.
Personal bias makes this a BIT more debated, but honestly it won't make a difference until the majority agrees.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: Neotornado on April 21, 2015, 02:15:00 AM
To be honest if I was thinkin' of dark alice as a puppet I WOULD have just made her a shiny coloration on normal alice as a shout-out. Hemo I guess liked the concept a bit more and added her in as a boss-only puppet, then made her player-obtainable late into development. Still, if you are looking for alternate versions of puppets based on one or two sources you could take a few ideas from 1.5 like miko suika or princess wriggle/gothic mystia. ...And mitori/sasha, I'm sure there are 1.8 styled sprites for them both if you wanted to add them in.
Title: Re: Touhoumon: Random community edition!
Post by: Chaos_lord on April 21, 2015, 10:20:04 AM
It's nice to see people throwing around ideas, but I think we need to sort out how to code it first so we can design around platform limitations.

If we ROMhack our options are limited in what we are able to code into the ROM, which will make alot of mechanic changes very difficult (such as large changes to crit mechanics or how major battles work) however we will have a complete starting base to work off of.

Alternatively we could look to RPG maker and remove these limitations, major changes are much easier and more user friendly to implement and we can easily back-port later gen mechanics from pokemon essentials similar to how gaiden does. Using RPG maker can also allow for creative solutions to design problems such as have a crit toggle in the options menu to resolve RNG debates. The main downsides with this method is we don't have a map or campaign to work with as a base, which is more work for us and that anyone working on it except the art and design team(?) needs a copy of the program from somewhere.

The last option would be to code from scratch, though this is even more work then RPG maker for the sole purpose of avoiding it. Unless people really want this it's not recommended.