Touhou Puppet Play Forums

Shoddy Battle 2 => Shoddy Touhoumon Info/Discussion => : Naï August 01, 2013, 06:08:03 PM

: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: Naï August 01, 2013, 06:08:03 PM
This topic is meant to be a discussion for ideas and ways to... guess what. :rolldice:
That's right, it's meant to MAKE SHODDY MORE POPULAR!

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/qYnx7yV.jpg)

I'd like to make a few suggestions myself, but I'm sure you all have some ideas, so please do your best to share them with us.

Oh, and if you ask me why I want Shoddy to be more popular: a larger community creates a very competitive environment, which is just fun and perfect all-around. The overall gameplay level increases, and as it does, there will be stronger and stronger opponents to face. It'd never really get boring, now would it?

And if anyone says something's too hard or almost impossible in this case... nah, not really. The steps are mostly laid down, they just take a lot of work to do.



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☢ CAUTION!! ☢
EXTREME LEVELS OF WALL OF TEXT AHEAD.
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Well... Shoddy isn't very popular right now.

Agastya would probably argue that there were days when it was even LESS popular; nowadays, Shoddy does have a stable community, but it's still small, and communities which don't grow only tend to dim out with time.

However, there must be some ways to make it more popular, right?



What I have in mind is discussing this each step, one by one. Of course, that requires that the steps be laid down in the first place. So here we go.
steps #5 and #6 are best steps ok









As for the order of the steps... I do have some ideas for #1 (advertisement), but I think there isn't much point in advertising too much before completing the wiki and tweaking the forums.

Anyway, for #1, I didn't think of anything flashy, really: just putting up links to "Touhoumon 1.8 netplay - Shoddy 2 client", "THPP wiki" and "THPP forums" in places that are usually references for Touhou fangames. What I can think of right off the bat is en.touhouwiki.net (http://en.touhouwiki.net) and touhou.wikia.com (http://touhou.wikia.com). Of course, said links would be limited to the actual THPP page in those wikis, but it's a start.

The next step from there would probably moving onto GBA Pokemon ROM hacking communities... or maybe Touhou communities... or why not both. The first option'd probably be the faster one, but both should have plenty of people interested in it.

However, this can NOT be done too intensely early on, because if a mass of players does end up miraculously forming thanks to our effort, then that mass will be largely uninstructed in THPP, and if we can't hope to instruct that mass and have them actually building teams, nobody'll really want to stay.

I guess the first step for everyone should be playing through Emerald first, so as to at least have a general idea of how the types work? Would that require additional steps, then?







#2 and #3 can't really work without each other. Why did I even put them as separate steps?

Well, first of all, the wiki needs to be visually appealing. So broken links should be fixed, and so on. Also, we really need a better main page! Just saying.

It also needs to be easy and intuitive to navigate through, so pages like Common Support Moves (http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/wiki/Common_Support_Moves) have to be in places where people actually see them.

Also, if someone checks the Spikes (http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/wiki/Spikes) or Levitate (http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/wiki/Levitate) page, they'd expect a full list of mons who can run it, at the very least.

That and there might be a need to make redirections in the fashion DParsee -> Defense Parsee for EVERY shard form, as well as changing the order of the base stats (the actual one is off-putting for old Pokemon players), and some disambiguation pages here and there.

Of course, that's already a lot of work.



However, that's not even the point. The point is making teambuilding easy.

For that, my suggestion is for a Category to be created: that Category would hold puppet Categories, as in "Bulky Attacker", "Spinner" and so on, with one puppet being able to be in more than one category at the same time, even within a single set.

From there, if there is a "Teambuilding" page categorizing teams into basic types - semi-stall, offensive, whatever - and basic guidelines for it, like advising people to run at least one Spinner unless they know what they're doing... then teambuilding'd be that much easier.

There should also be external links on a puppet's page linking to the forum sets made for it. That way, the sets would be way more useful and approachable. And of course there should be sets for EVRY TAWHOU! Well that's my dream anyway, lol.

Also, this (http://maya.sector-5.net/py/touhou/) really has to become more popular, but so does the fact that it doesn't actually account for abilities.







I got things to do (unfortunately), so I'll wrap this up with #4 for now, the forums themselves.

Well I didn't think much about the forums tbh. However, I think everything'd be far more visible if the subcategories were to be below the main category one by one, instead of just being there as little links. That shouldn't be too hard to do, really.

As for new categories, no idea, but it's for sure that these forums could use a lot of new ones, and that the right ones'd actually get plenty of use. I personally vote for a blog-style News category just to make those news easier to see (should be easy to do for the most part as well).









Ok, discuss, comment, suggest, complain, whatever you all wish. Actually, I'd love if this was actually turned into a discussion, but I did put down plenty of ideas there already, at any rate.

tl;dr: Shoddy's kinda unpopular, so I thought of a few steps of how to try and make it more popular or die trying. This is supposed to be a discussion based on these steps, including suggestions and ideas from whoever and whatnot.
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: SG-Sanae August 01, 2013, 07:47:49 PM
If you want to make Touhou Puppet Play more popular, try bringing it to Pokémon Showdown.
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: DoctorShanks August 02, 2013, 03:18:45 AM
If you want to make Touhou Puppet Play more popular, try bringing it to Pokémon Showdown.

The problem with that is that Showdown is independently hosted(??????) and the source code hasn't been released(???????????)

Agastya once stated that Pokemon Online was horribly organized and not worth the effort.

EDIT: More stuff

#1: I try to do what advertising I can. Once in a while, I'll make a Touhoumon related post on Tumblr and tag it as such. On rare occasions I'll see a 4chan thread discussing Touhoumon and I'll casually drop a post there.

#2: Work in progress that needs a worker. I'd love to help out with it, but I suck at zeroes and ones. If you're going to work on it, I wish you good luck. I'll try to be around to provide feedback and motivation.

#3: I've been meaning to write one of these a while back. I'm way better at this game on paper than I am on Shoddy. Lol.

#4: Agreed. I don't think I can do that myself, but it's probably like a 2 minute task. It looks really scrunched up right now.
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: Naï August 02, 2013, 08:07:07 AM
I have no idea about what Pokemon/Pokemon hacks sites are popular, so that'd be up to everyone else :<.
I stopped playing Pokemon pretty long ago, and I never bothered with playing competitively, so.



@Shanks:
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: shai_LP August 05, 2013, 09:47:53 PM
psssssssssst

hey

Damage Calculator



also Damage formula should be put somewhere on the wiki because for some reason 3rd Gen Formula is a pain in the butt to find via search engine.

I Reckon you could probably make a box on the navigation bar for all the links on the main page on the wiki for easier navigation. [see: Koumakan's hisoutensoku and shinkirou wikis]

but that's more barkin' up EXs and Agastya's tree I think.

p.s getting google to think you're not a phishing site/reminder to check spam folder should probably happen eventually as well. But that's totally relatively minor.
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: EXSariel August 05, 2013, 11:29:20 PM
I Reckon you could probably make a box on the navigation bar for all the links on the main page on the wiki for easier navigation. [see: Koumakan's hisoutensoku and shinkirou wikis]

This is completely doable by any editor on the wiki, I believe. They just need to know how to do it.

Protip for any such: Go here. (http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Sidebar)
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: shai_LP August 06, 2013, 12:49:52 AM
I Reckon you could probably make a box on the navigation bar for all the links on the main page on the wiki for easier navigation. [see: Koumakan's hisoutensoku and shinkirou wikis]

This is completely doable by any editor on the wiki, I believe. They just need to know how to do it.

Protip for any such: Go here. (http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Sidebar)

Well uh.

[5:46:14] Na I: except
[5:46:18] Na I: i can't edit it anyway
[5:46:21] Na I: because it's protected.
[5:46:30] Na I: :D
[5:46:50] Na I: only exs and agas can edit it, probably
[5:47:08] Na I: oh and
[5:47:11] Na I: people like jjames
[5:47:17] Na I: but who is jjames
[5:47:22] Na I: i have no idea
[5:48:34] +Rhetco: sariel

smooth

Unless he's missing something?
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: DoctorShanks August 06, 2013, 02:22:47 PM
Damage Calculator

In the meantime, my favorite damage calculator is this one (http://old.marriland.com/damage.php). It's completely number based, unlike other damage calculators out there. Unfortunately, since it's rather old, I get the feeling it might not be up for much longer.
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: shai_LP August 06, 2013, 09:25:53 PM
Damage Calculator

In the meantime, my favorite damage calculator is this one (http://old.marriland.com/damage.php). It's completely number based, unlike other damage calculators out there. Unfortunately, since it's rather old, I get the feeling it might not be up for much longer.

Passable for the meantime I guess.

Don't Touhoumon Type-Boosting items increase damage by 1.2 instead of vanilla 3rd gen 1.1 though?

How do you account for the difference?


Also this might be a shoddy fix but...

Maybe being able to battle yourself on shoddy would give you a "Calculator" of sorts?

Not even sure if you're already able to via an Alt Acc on the same machine...

However, I do know if you challenge yourself it does jack shit.

Would this even be remotely possible?

None of the other battle calcs that I know of are open source so if we want one specifically for this someone would need to write it from scratch.
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: Naï August 10, 2013, 12:05:01 PM
True... we do need a dedicated damage calculator. It'd help tons. Is it that hard to program one? As of now I'm a complete negation in general coding - I could probably make one if you give me, like, a year, but it's probably more convenient for someone else to spend some time on it. I reckon it couldn't be too hard if given the formula.



Damage = ((L * 2 + 10)/250 * (A / D) * B + 2) * M

L - Level of the attacking Pokémon.

A - Attack of the attacking Pokémon.

D - Defense of the defending Pokémon.

B - The base damage of the attack.

M - Any damage modifiers. M is calculated as follows:

Modifier = STAB * T * C * O * (rand ∈ [0.85, 1.00])

STAB - Same-type attack bonus. Value is 1.5 if the Pokémon gets STAB, 1 otherwise.

T - Type effectiveness. Value can be 0, 0.25, 0.5, 1, 2, or 4.

C - Critical hit. 2 if the attack lands a critical hit, 1 otherwise.

O - Other. Things like weather, held items, ect.

Rand - Random number between 0.85 and 1.00.
Ripped from http://wiki.pokemon-online.eu/wiki/Damage_formula (http://wiki.pokemon-online.eu/wiki/Damage_formula).

About putting the formula somewhere on the wiki, I could, but... right now it wouldn't really fit in into any page or place I can think of.

It's probably best to forget about battling yourself if it's bugged right now. It'd be neat if it worked, but if it doesn't then it's probably so buggy I don't even.



I'd love to have the ability to edit sidebars, but nope, they're protected. Agas already took care of it, though I think there might be some finishing touches that need to be done, like... why is the retribution for the nuclear-powered maid (http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/wiki/Help:Contents) right there? Is it the apocalypse?
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: Doesnt August 10, 2013, 01:05:02 PM
I use this damage calculator personally: http://honko.byethost8.com/manly_calc.html

It's obviously not tailored for touhoumon, but the ability to just slap in base stats and common spreads makes it pretty easy to use quickly nonetheless.
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: shai_LP August 10, 2013, 10:17:28 PM
Probably the hardest part of making a new calc would be accounting for the new type chart.

It'd be nice if we could get a thing like Honko's calc though
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: Naï August 12, 2013, 01:47:58 PM
Really, making a calc'd probably not be too hard to do. I swear I'd take it up myself if I even knew any coding to begin with :<

Either way, having an official calc would be a great help nonetheless. The type chart shouldn't be too much trouble either.
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: joshcja August 13, 2013, 09:53:09 AM
Well I'm pretty terrible at coding anything not a machine but I'm kinda ok at the pokemans so I'm currently attempting to get at least 1 optimal set up for all the viable "OU" puppets. Will average 1 or 2 a day for a while depending on how much testing I can get in (The Idle zone is too strong for me) with most of em being sweepers/hole punchers cause walls and bulky attackers are a bitch to EV and Mamizou/Aki sisters are just laughing in my face every time I try to work out all their viable sets QQ.

May eventually get around to posting a few guides on cores/team archetypes along with a few transitional guides to ease the shift from vanilla pokemon to touhoumon but metagame things will have to wait till we get a real metagame.

*makes prinny/shanks post more sets via option 6*
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: Naï August 15, 2013, 06:03:37 PM
That is very much appreciated. I'll get around to linking every puppet's wiki page to its viable sets, too.

I'll work on UU sets myself later, looks like I'm the only one who has some love to give those poor abandoned puppets :<
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: DoctorShanks August 15, 2013, 06:34:01 PM
I'll get around to linking every puppet's wiki page to its viable sets, too.

With this in mind, it might not be a bad idea to introduce a little more discipline in the Movesets forum.

I've actually been secretly working on an essay of things that rustle my jimmies in that particular forum, but that place is obviously not something I can moderate on my own because of potential bias, as well as the fact that I don't have permission from Agastya or EXSariel.
: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: shai_LP August 15, 2013, 07:02:08 PM
Speaking of UU

http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/forum/index.php?topic=34.0

needs to be updated

for instance.

> no Attack Murasa
> no Defense Daiyousei

yet in shoddy these mons are listed as banned in "UU more like QQ"


Yo a speed tiers topic would be useful too

: Re: Ways to make Shoddy more popular?
: DoctorShanks August 15, 2013, 10:52:49 PM
Speaking of UU

http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/forum/index.php?topic=34.0

needs to be updated

for instance.

> no Attack Murasa
> no Defense Daiyousei

Done. UU seems to have done a great job of helping us find more radical puppets, but there hasn't been much UU action since it was introduced.

Yo a speed tiers topic would be useful too

Good idea. I'll put it in my to-do list.