Touhou Puppet Play Forums
Touhou Puppet Dance Performance => Touhou Puppet Dance Performance => : KuroShinki November 12, 2015, 10:55:08 AM
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Hi everyone,
I decided to get this game, and surprisily, is the best Touhou Puppet Play I've ever played. It fixes some of the problems that Pokemon has, it brings some new things and most importantly, you finally explore Gensokyo!
But anyway, I have a couple of questions:
1- Style change: I understand that it can be done at will, but does it affect stat growth?
2- What does SP do? Is is eqivalent of PP from Pokèmon?
3- What is the purpose of colors? For example, my Shinki is "White".
4- About stats boost, is there a limit? Or I can just boost all to MAX?
BTW, I'm in Bamboo forest. Here's my team (Can't figure out how to use spoilers):
(http://i68.tinypic.com/4r3xjn.jpg)
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1- Style change: I understand that it can be done at will, but does it affect stat growth?
Yes, but they also affect current stats. They're what Pokemon and Touhoumon evolutions became.
What does SP do? Is is eqivalent of PP from Pokèmon?
Yes, SP = Pokemon PP.
3- What is the purpose of colors? For example, my Shinki is "White".
They're Emblems. They boost a stat depending on the color and they're the TPDP equivalent of Natures.
Red - FoAtk
Blue - FoDef
Black - SpAtk
White - SpDef
Green - Spe
4- About stats boost, is there a limit? Or I can just boost all to MAX?
No, you can't max everything out. You can spent PP on any stats as you see fit, but up to 64 in a stat and 130 stat PP total. They're a revamped EV system.
Also, pre-answering a question you might have, the letter grades indicate how high/low that puppet's stat is. They're just like IVs in Pokemon.
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Very interesting.
So basically, no more EV/IV gain from battling? Another thing that annoyed me to death in Pokèmon lol
Also:
- How is the rest of the game? From Bamboo forest onwards? So far, the difficulty isn't too much hard, but it's not easy either. I say it's balanced, without illegal moveset, evolution (there aren't in the game, so...), but I wonder if there are some cheap shots. I don't mind grinding a little, because in this game it's really nice to grind, compared to Pokèmon (All get EXP? Yes please.)
- Why Udonge instead of Reisen? Isn't that her nickname or something?
- How HM works? Do I need a HM slave? Or they did it the good way, and you use some kind of tools?
- Anyone knows if there are sequel planned? I'm not following the Doujin scenes much, so I'm curious.
Also, let me write down my thoughts:
+ No more Kanto or Hoenn. You actually are in Gensokyo, you meet the character, the lore etc
+ No Gyms, so it's a totally different story from the usual.
+ A lot of Character, even new ones.
+ Better catch system.
+ Music is from Touhou, and is done well.
+ Nice presentation overall.
- Missing a World map (or I haven't get it so far?)
- Locale thing, but it's easily fixable.
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So basically, no more EV/IV gain from battling? Another thing that annoyed me to death in Pokèmon lol
Well, you gain PP from battles (usually 2-4) which you can spend on learning moves (which moves you can learn depends on level) and on improving stats, as in the previous message.
- How is the rest of the game? From Bamboo forest onwards?
I am not certain, but the game, while erratically difficult, isn't frustrating as a whole, except maybe Remilia if you lack a strong Steel type.
- Why Udonge instead of Reisen? Isn't that her nickname or something?
Good question. Normally I'd say it's because Reisen II is also in the game, but TPDP calls her Gyokuto...
- How HM works? Do I need a HM slave? Or they did it the good way, and you use some kind of tools?
In TPDP, RIP HM slaves. Overworld HM moves are now key items.
- Anyone knows if there are sequel planned? I'm not following the Doujin scenes much, so I'm curious.
An expansion (http://thpp.supersanctuary.net/forum/index.php?topic=523.0) might come at C89.
- Missing a World map (or I haven't get it so far?)
You'll get one eventually. (Gap Map, replaces Fly HM)
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- I am not certain, but the game, while erratically difficult, isn't frustrating as a whole, except maybe Remilia if you lack a strong Steel type.
I have Alice who can use a Steel move. Also, my Shinki (starter) wrecks anything.
Also...
- In TPDP, RIP HM slaves. Overworld HM moves are now key items.
It finally happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs
Last question: What does Cost means? I don't see anything related to it.
And now I've finished Eientei and lost for the first time against Marisa, because I've left the place (Reisen can heal you, I know that), and decided to just go for SDM. I managed to beat the first two, but my Chen was paralyzed, so Marisa just finished her.
Then, I just retried with fully healed team and destroyed her XD
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Last question: What does Cost means? I don't see anything related to it.
Only used behind the scenes to determine exp needed for level 100 (and by extension, exp required to level up overall)
80 - 700.000 Exp
90 - 850.000 Exp
100 - 1.000.000 Exp
110 - 1.150.000 Exp
120 - 1.300.000 Exp
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Last question: What does Cost means? I don't see anything related to it.
Only used behind the scenes to determine exp needed for level 100 (and by extension, exp required to level up overall)
80 - 700.000 Exp
90 - 850.000 Exp
100 - 1.000.000 Exp
110 - 1.150.000 Exp
120 - 1.300.000 Exp
In addition, the opponent's Cost determines how much EXP you get for beating them, but I'm unsure of the formula there.
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Last question: What does Cost means? I don't see anything related to it.
Only used behind the scenes to determine exp needed for level 100 (and by extension, exp required to level up overall)
80 - 700.000 Exp
90 - 850.000 Exp
100 - 1.000.000 Exp
110 - 1.150.000 Exp
120 - 1.300.000 Exp
In addition, the opponent's Cost determines how much EXP you get for beating them, but I'm unsure of the formula there.
So it's kinda like Pokemon's weight I believe? I never looked into that, but an evolved Pokèmon gives way more EXP than a base form.
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Last question: What does Cost means? I don't see anything related to it.
Only used behind the scenes to determine exp needed for level 100 (and by extension, exp required to level up overall)
80 - 700.000 Exp
90 - 850.000 Exp
100 - 1.000.000 Exp
110 - 1.150.000 Exp
120 - 1.300.000 Exp
In addition, the opponent's Cost determines how much EXP you get for beating them, but I'm unsure of the formula there.
So it's kinda like Pokemon's weight I believe? I never looked into that, but an evolved Pokèmon gives way more EXP than a base form.
Cost is used in a few ways, #1 is for required EXP and exp gained from defeating them and #2 is that it is used in calculations for certain skills (ex. Tumble Plant). Also exp gain is determined only by the opponents cost and has nothing to do with them having a style change or not. There is an experience calculator on my excel document if you needed to figure anything out with that.
Also figured I should mention that the game DOES have illegal movesets and occasional illegal other things like no nature but rarely cheats in any meaningful way until the very end (final boss final puppet has 64PP in every stat). Most illegal sets seem to be from the devs not catching the trainers moveset when they patched to change what things can learn.
Game is pretty easy if you know what to do or can be very hard if you are challenging yourself. Basically if you go around exploring and fighting all the trainers you will breeze through the game but if you don't look around much you may have some problems. Also if you want to free easy win for the whole game use Assist Chen as she can solo 95% of it with little to no grinding.
Also pro-tip if you get stuck... Assist Akyuu = Shedinja, you'd be surprised the fights you can breeze past with her help.
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Also if you want to free easy win for the whole game use Assist Chen as she can solo 95% of it with little to no grinding.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/4r3xjn.jpg)
Uh, I think he's already doing that, Greenmittenz XD
Further helped by starter Shinki
Update: I actually wonder what is the 5% AChen struggles against, because you can cover that with the starter; then a true easy modo cruise through the game will be in place.
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Uh, I think he's already doing that, Greenmittenz XD
Further helped by starter Shinki
Well, as I stated, I have Assist Chen, but rarely use her. My weakest is Murasa, because I can't make her shine like in other Puppet Play. Sure, she starts slow in those, too. But then she become a killing machine...for me at least. Probably I'll replace her soon, maybe with Mokou...or Cirno? I am in Misty lake after all...I have to check.
Also, yeah. Shinki rules. She is my favorite in all Touhou after all ^_^ (her and Yukari/Flandre in 2nd place, 3rd Keine).
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The parts Assist Chen "struggles" against are the Yuuka trainer on route 4, Remilia, Kanako, Mystia trainer after Sanae. apart from using things as fodder in a few places.
for Optimal easy mode you actually use a black nature Chen as a starter and then get an Assist Akyuu and a Defense Keine =p.
Also I found Murasa to be pretty good in casual play. She has a pretty low exp curve but was super tanky and could easily survive and deal with problems despite being lower leveled.
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I was starting to give up on Murasa and Byakuren, but then I changed their style...
I forgot to mention that I still haven't used the stat boost, and my Puppet are far from being perfect nature/IV (I would say my best is Chen with E, A-, D+, A, A-, A-)
I'm in SDM, and I'm one-shotting everything that comes to my sight with Murasa.
My formation now ^_^
EDIT: Just encountered Remilia. Well, aside for her ARemilia, I can manage the fight. I'm gonna grind and explore the SDM more for the time being tough.
EDIT2: Beat Remilia (nailed it), beat the Liberation Front, and now I'm exploring around the new path in the Forest of Magic, before I venture in the mountain (which I suppose is the Youkai Mountain?).
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2h3diiu.jpg)
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for Optimal easy mode you actually use a black nature Chen as a starter and then get an Assist Akyuu and a Defense Keine =p.
- AAkyuu walls a surprising amount of stuff, most importantly Water types that AChen hates.
- DKeine is a tanky Steel that turns into a Steel/Fighting sweeper at 50% HP, so does double duty as a Steel killer (which both AAkyuu and AChen hate) and as a Steel type (to defeat Remilia)
Were-Hakutaku DKeine is plenty powerful alright, but I was thinking if it wouldn't be better to use a Konngara starter instead. What is your say, Greenmittenz?
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for Optimal easy mode you actually use a black nature Chen as a starter and then get an Assist Akyuu and a Defense Keine =p.
- AAkyuu walls a surprising amount of stuff, most importantly Water types that AChen hates.
- DKeine is a tanky Steel that turns into a Steel/Fighting sweeper at 50% HP, so does double duty as a Steel killer (which both AAkyuu and AChen hate) and as a Steel type (to defeat Remilia)
Were-Hakutaku DKeine is plenty powerful alright, but I was thinking if it wouldn't be better to use a Konngara starter instead. What is your say, Greenmittenz?
You could use other things but Konngara has a low exp curve so if you wanted easy mode she would require grinding. Sakuya is probably the fastest thing to pick as a starter to replace Keine but overall ends up taking longer to level up Chen without Marisa EXP so =p.
Also using Chen as a starter guarantees your stats without having to use RNG manipulation, so then you just need any Keine and Akyuu.
[inspoiler]A Black natured all A+ Chen Assist gets through just about everything with 64 points in Sp.Atk, 2points in both Fo.Def and Sp.Def and 62 points in Speed. all you need to do is hit level 11 before Cirno and get the Jade Hairpin, hit level 27 before Mokou *use 3 candies to hit 30* and have Chen hit level 36 and Akyuu hit level 30 before Remilia teaching her the Clearing Mist Skill Card. Then you don't need to grind anymore just take out Kanako after Sanae to give the Combat Handbook use 5-6 Candies before Medicine2 to hit 60 and use 2 more Candies before Gengetsu/Mugetsu to hit level 83. Then re-equip Jade Hairpin for the final fights and your good. :3
[/inspoiler]
^ sums up the speedrun route for EXP. xD
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Uhm...I think I've encountered a bug or the most OP move in the game.
What's the deal with Twister? Always 5-hit with a huge damage per hit? I almost lost to Reimu thanks to that...(Assist Chen saved the day, but that's not how I like to play).
EDIT: I fought another Aya, and that only got 2 hits...bad luck with Reimu I guess XD
Also, what's the deal with Momiji's ability, fair and square? For what I've seen, acts kinda like Focus Band, leaving her with 1HP. But then she use Restitution, and my poor LV 41 Alice lose to a LV 30 Momiji...
Other than these 2 things, it's still a fair challenge.
Also, when is a good idea to start reinforcing Stats? I never used, because I was planning to save them for when I'll build my team for the final boss of the game (Or bosses? If it was a Pokèmon game, I would say the E4, but here?).
Also, what's the use of Magical Fragments? Ingame description says "They could be useful", but I never found a use for them.
EDIT2: Beat Sanae...again, nailed (1HP left!) thanks to my lv 51 Chen. I need to grind a lot I think...
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Aya Power has the Salvo ability which makes the 2-5 hit moves always hit 5 times.
Fair and Square works like the Sturdy ability in pokemon, if you would get one shot from full health then you survive with 1 hp. Restitution is like Endeavor from pokemon (sets opponents hp equal to your HP) and the way the AI works is that it will select the most powerful min damage move that appears first on the list and is selected knowing the results of what you selected. So if you take them from full to 1hp they will almost always use Restitution to set you to 1 as well.
You should probably start reinforcing stats pretty much immediately or whenever you find things are a bit of a challenge I guess. Every boss in the game uses stat reinforcement so not putting stats in is just crippling yourself and there is no benefit to waiting as it is just like EVs and the points will scale up with your level.
Magical Fragments are used as currency to reincarnate puppets at end game. Its good to keep a ton around but also not very hard to farm up a ton as well.
After Sanae the speedrun has a lv 45 Chen Assist, lv 38 Akyuu Assist, and a lv 33 Keine Normal which you change into Defense for the next fight. So you shouldn't NEED to grind but certainly if you haven't been putting in stat points then that will hurt you quite a bit.
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Aya Power has the Salvo ability which makes the 2-5 hit moves always hit 5 times.
Fair and Square works like the Sturdy ability in pokemon, if you would get one shot from full health then you survive with 1 hp. Restitution is like Endeavor from pokemon (sets opponents hp equal to your HP) and the way the AI works is that it will select the most powerful min damage move that appears first on the list and is selected knowing the results of what you selected. So if you take them from full to 1hp they will almost always use Restitution to set you to 1 as well.
You should probably start reinforcing stats pretty much immediately or whenever you find things are a bit of a challenge I guess. Every boss in the game uses stat reinforcement so not putting stats in is just crippling yourself and there is no benefit to waiting as it is just like EVs and the points will scale up with your level.
Magical Fragments are used as currency to reincarnate puppets at end game. Its good to keep a ton around but also not very hard to farm up a ton as well.
After Sanae the speedrun has a lv 45 Chen Assist, lv 38 Akyuu Assist, and a lv 33 Keine Normal which you change into Defense for the next fight. So you shouldn't NEED to grind but certainly if you haven't been putting in stat points then that will hurt you quite a bit.
Thanks for the tip. Yeah, I reinforced my stats because I was losing badly against Kanako, and then I won pretty easily. I hope I didn't put them in the wrong places, I'm not a hardcore Pokèmon Expert.
Another thing I noticed is that before pumping my stats, every enemy would be faster than me, even if they were 15LVs below me (even Power and Defense). Now it seems more balanced.
Also, I got Rocksmash and Fly ^_^ But I don't know where I'm supposed to go. Sanae mentioned once a rock that could be smashed at the base of the mountain, but I didn't found anything. I found a giant hole with a Fairy that says "You can't go here", near a sign that says "Highly poisoned area". I've checked Yuyuko's tree again, but nothing there. I can't go towards the Sun Garden and stuff, because 2 NPCs stop me saying "You don't have the permission to go here". I'm clueless :O
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If you check the map there are 2 routes you haven't explored yet. One is the one south west of the Human Village which is still blocked by the two npc's like you mentioned and the other is the little offshoot route going north from route 1 (the path from the Shrine to the Human Village.
And ya the game is certainly balanced around assuming you invest your points into stats as any named trainer will have perfect S ranks in all stats and any important fight will have PP invested into at least one important stat.
For example the very first Reimu fight has 64 Speed invested into her Aya meaning you would need speed investment to outspeed her level 10 Aya with a level 16 neutral speed natured Chen.
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Didn't know about that. Well, can't complain here, since they ARE bosses after all. If they were pushover like every trainer, what's the point? Now I understand why that PAya of Reimu was so OP. Still, I managed to take her down with my DMurasa.
Also, how did I miss the Underground area? I wasn't looking at that part of the map at all.
Thanks for the tips so far. I'm really enjoying the game, and I would like to spend more hours every day, but work and HDN3 keep me busy...too bad that I can't play it on my PSP while I burn my fat.
EDIT: Puppet liberation front defeated, Yuuka defeated, can't go pass Suika in HAkurei Mountain, Yuyuko's tree doesn't trigger anything, and Chen still doesn't fight at all, and she's lv 73, while the other are 68-69...
Welp, I'm stuck. I guess I have to reach Makai now, but I don't know where is it (I know that is the last place of the game).
EDIT: Found the way.
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Double post for bumpin reasons.
Ok, I've found the most broken enemy in the game: Yumeko's Yumeko. 5 hits move that does tons of damange (Always half of my health), she always hits first, and she always make me flinch >_<
I've tried a different approach, and...she's faster than my 256 speed AChen, which is the most fast thing I can throw at her. WOW.
EDIT: I won by pure luck. I went with Confinement with Alice, but she was faster and 5-hits me, but without flinch. After she was Paralyzed, I just one-shotted her with Alice...with a Critical Hit, so double victory!
Now only Shinki awaits...and I'm afraid of the cheapest move that the game will throw at me :O
EDIT: Beat the game. Shinki was much more easier than Yumeko, and I cheated using the Full Revive items while she was confused...not that I feel bad about it, she got instantly healed of her confusion the first time.
Now for the postgame...can't defeat Suwako, can't defeat Sanae, can't defeat Elite 4, Kasen's wild give little experience, Reincarnation is a nice feature, but Magical Fragments farm is a pain, since it's online only...I think I'm lost.
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One thing has been forgotten in everything that has been said.
Puppets with a higher Cost also have higher stats overall, so it balances out the higher training speed of lower Cost puppets. Basically, as far as I noticed, a Cot 80 puppet and a Cost 100 puppet have an equivalent strength for the same amount of XP, but the Cost 80 will have a higher level.
Except that when you reach the level 100 with a Cost 80 puppet, a Cost 100 puppet with the same amount of XP isn't level 100 yet, and therefore still can get stronger.
So in the end puppets with a higher cost are more powerful, and I think that it really sucks. It really limits your choices to beat the last bosses, notably. You still can try to build good tactics with Cost 80 puppets in an attempt to compensate this, but for some of them it's just a no-no. I really wanted to cry when I saw my ALuize and my PRumia's stats at lvl100 (both are Cost 80), when I compared them to my Cost 110-120 puppet's.
This cost thing and what puppets are of a high cost is what really killed the endgame for me, as I am somehow forced to play certain puppets and to ditch some others. Hence I cannot really play who I really want. Having certain moves being stronger against higher cost puppets doesn't balance it at all, especially when you would just hit harder with a basic high power move. Being able to build Perfect IVs isn't enough to compensate it either, and I'd even say that it plain kills the concept of IVs itself.
Call me the day when Cost 80 are finally getting some kind of buff. :(
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If you are talking about end game stuff not sure what you are really talking about... O.o ChenA is broken, RumiaP effectively has base 217 spread attack and DaiyouseiD makes for an extremely potent late game wall. Also Wakasagi Kogasa, the list goes on and if you include 90 cost as well then you have KeineD and MomijiS which are both powerhouses.
Higher cost might have a slightly higher total base stats but not enough to make a significant difference in your choices for late game puppets and a level 100 80Cost will have far more stats than a level 81 120 cost. The more important factor is where the stats are allocated typing movepool and ability.
Unless you are talking about building competitive teams and then unfortunately you are optimizing for the best possible thing you can do (though 80 costs still have a chance there) but trained 80 cost puppets can easily dispatch all the post game fights.
Kasen's wilds are the best EXP until you can solo Yuki rematch (a level 100 Chen should have no troubles) then just keep killing her and reseting.. Aya is probably the best puppet for grinding others as she can quite easily solo Yuki, Mai and Yumeko before gapping back to start again. You should be able to get 2 6S rank puppets in about 50-100 magical fragments and then from there it will only take like 10-20 fragments to make perfect puppets. Fastest place to farm fragments is Mayohiga but you should get tons from exp grinding in general as literally everything in the game has at least a 20% chance to drop fragments if they drop an item.
Might make a video on how to make 2 6s rank puppets efficiently at some point but... lazy x.x
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Yeah, I forgot to update.
For now, I took a break from the game. I managed to defeat Suwako, and most of all, I started reincarnating puppets, distributing the stats in a more efficient way. Now the problem of being slower than my opponent disappeared.
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If you are talking about end game stuff not sure what you are really talking about... O.o ChenA is broken, RumiaP effectively has base 217 spread attack and DaiyouseiD makes for an extremely potent late game wall. Also Wakasagi Kogasa, the list goes on and if you include 90 cost as well then you have KeineD and MomijiS which are both powerhouses.
Higher cost might have a slightly higher total base stats but not enough to make a significant difference in your choices for late game puppets and a level 100 80Cost will have far more stats than a level 81 120 cost. The more important factor is where the stats are allocated typing movepool and ability.
Unless you are talking about building competitive teams and then unfortunately you are optimizing for the best possible thing you can do (though 80 costs still have a chance there) but trained 80 cost puppets can easily dispatch all the post game fights.
Kasen's wilds are the best EXP until you can solo Yuki rematch (a level 100 Chen should have no troubles) then just keep killing her and reseting.. Aya is probably the best puppet for grinding others as she can quite easily solo Yuki, Mai and Yumeko before gapping back to start again. You should be able to get 2 6S rank puppets in about 50-100 magical fragments and then from there it will only take like 10-20 fragments to make perfect puppets. Fastest place to farm fragments is Mayohiga but you should get tons from exp grinding in general as literally everything in the game has at least a 20% chance to drop fragments if they drop an item.
Might make a video on how to make 2 6s rank puppets efficiently at some point but... lazy x.x
Power Rumia is completely USELESS, because she cannot stand damage AND is too slow.
Defense Luize is completely helpless aswell, because she's just not fast enough to make the opponent flinch, while flinching is the main reason to have her secondary effect boost. That is, if she's lucky enough to make the 60% flinching actually work.
Defense Keine (I'm assuming with Hakutaku ability) is barely any useful aswell, because it takes her to take damage AND remain alive to start kicking some ass. That is, if she's quicker than her opponent after transforming.
Assist Akyuu is a joke aswell, because if on the paper she might be able to kick some ass by trapping the opponent in a slow and agonizing death, the reality is that just every enemy puppet is polyvalent enough to have at least one move to beat up the poor Akyuu.
Assist Kotohime is the worst, with her very average stats, her lack of powerful moves, lack of defense, and a next to useless ability.
And besides this, all the Cost 110-120 that I have raised have their fair share of fearsome power and/or speed. My only useful 80 power that I tried are Speed Dai, Power Lily (both for Fairy Dance+Energy Absorb), and Assist Chen. All the rest is MEH.
Sure you do can make something not too bad out of some 80-90 cost, but that just won't cut out the fact that 110-120 remain superior to them. Even if these 80 Cost are playable, it takes them quite some strategy to make something out of them, while Cost 110-120 can just spam the bigass powerful attacks and call it a day. And the "bigass attack spam" is basically all the endgame is made of, by the way.
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But Hatate is cost 100, and the best thing ever.
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And the "bigass attack spam" is basically all the endgame is made of, by the way.
Agree, same problem as Pokèmon: the battles at high level are just short. The winner is the one who has more speed and type advantage. I found that the same remains in this game, too. It's clearly shown during the "Elite 4" fight.
I'm not bashing Pokèmon, of course. I love the games up to R/S/E, but they could use a little fix...but that would ruin the uniqueness that the Pokèmon games are. Touhou Puppet Dance tries to fix many problems, and actually succeed: breeding system done without randomness (almost)? Yes, please.
What can be done is a Touhou RPG with the same concept as Pokèmon (travel in Gensokyo, collecting Touhou characters, evolving etc), but done differently: Touhou Pocket Wars 2nd goes into the right direction, but still it's not close, because of the grinding and the randomness that can happen in battle.
I have to admit one thing, tough: I always thought about doing a Touhou RPG with RPG Maker, but it requires attention and creativity, and I lack both. Also, I still have to finish one project in RPG Maker...I guess I can half quote Sakaguchi here: "I don't have what it takes to make an action game. I think I'm better at telling a story".