Touhou Puppet Play Forums

Shoddy Battle 2 => Shoddy Touhoumon Info/Discussion => : EXSariel September 30, 2013, 02:12:37 AM

: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: EXSariel September 30, 2013, 02:12:37 AM: As you know, we, the server administrators, mainly me and Agastya, have prided ourselves on this server being 'pure,' that is to say, being as accurate and true to the original 1.812 game as possible. There are a few disparities here and there, such as the TD cast and Magic Stones, but we otherwise reject any notion of having 'custom' puppets available here and there. There has been quite a few talks amongst the administration and a few of the more influential members of the community about an additional server where such custom puppets and more could be designed and added to the current metagame, however many complications have prevented this from becoming a reality. This topic is being posted here to address one such complication; the community.

Our community is admittedly small and unimpressive, with quite a few people standing out but not enough bring forth anything crowd raising, nor is there much of a crowd to begin with. Touhou Puppet Play remains a popular alternative to the oft painful metagame of Pokemon, but the combination of Pokemon, Touhou and metagaming is a set of interests that very few people in this world actually have, much less those that speak native english. It is to this end that having another server might just kill what blooming community we have, because we might end up splitting it so thinly that neither can survive. There's also the matter of interest in said 'custom' environment; Who would play it? Who would built upon it? Would people abandon purity for it, or try to coexist with it?

One option is that we could combine the 'extended' metagame into our existing server and simply have a different ruleset for it, but this presents it's own complications, many of which are community based too. Would it overshadow the pure style of playing? Would it be overshadowed by the pure style of playing? There's a lot of things to consider that all ultimately boil down to 'how does the community feel about it?' This is what this topic is here to solve. Voting in the poll helps everyone get a good glance at what kind of consensus the community has reached but for me as a developer, it would be greatly appreciated if you posted your own comments, thoughts and feeling towards this kind of move as well.

If an 'extended' metagame becomes reality under any sort of circumstance, all of the puppets that are in the server but not currently in the Japanese Fire Red 1.812 ROM will be moved to it. This includes all of Agastya's Emerald version puppets, such as anyone from Ten Desires. If an 'extended' metagame becomes reality, there is also the possibility for many creative and interesting things to enter the meta, such as new moves, items or abilities on top of new puppets, but this is merely a possibility and not something definitively planned in the future if such a thing exists. Remember, for me and Agastya, purity and accuracy comes first. This is simply something that can be done if the community wishes for it, in whatever form it may come in.

That's about all there is to it. Have at it.
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: DoctorShanks September 30, 2013, 06:44:03 AM: I have a strong preference for official, but that's just me.

The TD cast and Kasen/Stones are a couple of additions that don't need to be here. I think that there should be a tier for strictly official which would be the default tier, and anything else would be in a separate tier so as to not mess with the purity of official. What's been added so far (TD/Stones/Kasen) has already has a significant impact on official; Yoshika puts many other Miasmas out of work, Futo and Mamizou are great leads who overshadow some puppets who would perform a similar role (Akyuu comes to mind, but most would prefer Mamizou simply because she's available), and Magic Stones seems like a more attractive Kikuri.

Having a bunch of puppets not in the official hacks within the teambuilder would confuse new players. I remember being confused when I saw the stat spreads for the TD cast when I first arrived.

But if you and the community want to add new stuff, is it possible to have two different clients work on the same server? Having two servers would divide the community in two, and any new players would have absolutely no chance adapting because an extended metagame doesn't exist outside of this potentially future server.
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: Mille September 30, 2013, 12:27:05 PM: i don't want to implement anything in this server that i can't implement in emerald, but thats mostly me being selfish

i am okay with splitting em stuff into its own tier list (it'd give me an excuse to have hyper beam gengetsu and physical tech iku) and even then people might just default that tier list

going any further than that makes me very uncomfortable because it's a very slippery slope and i am very prone to peer pressure (there may one day be actual uber tire if there actually is a demand for the x crew)

a second server would be suicidal for the community as well

(we could also just aaccept that what a /jp/ anon said was correct and it's more a server tailored towards em than jp fr)

: DoctorShanks September 30, 2013, 06:44:03 AM
But if you and the community want to add new stuff, is it possible to have two different clients work on the same server?
you can i believe but it wouldn't really be any more than a hassle since the clients would still be capable of challenging each other
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: SG-Sanae September 30, 2013, 01:44:11 PM: I'm in favor of giving extended a try without removing the pure server - the worst that could happen is nobody visiting the extended Metagame. I not only would want custom puppets, but some of the interesting things from later gens as well (such as Trick Room and weather rocks).

EDIT: Okay, there is still much to see in the current meta, but I like having room for more.
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: Mille September 30, 2013, 02:18:14 PM: : LightningLord2 September 30, 2013, 01:44:11 PM
I'm in favor of giving extended a try without removing the pure server - the worst that could happen is nobody visiting the extended Metagame. I not only would want custom puppets, but some of the interesting things from later gens as well (such as Trick Room and weather rocks), as we have depleted most strategic options in Touhoumon already.

yeah that's why everything has been used extensively and we have a totally established game where everything has been analyzed and has a niche set in stone and everything right
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: Garaliru September 30, 2013, 06:27:44 PM: Even though it would be kind off gimmicky it would still be very interesting.

Spoiler
Choice Scarf? Choice Specs? Life Orb? Focus Sash? ...Nah, let's not bring these unbelievably broken Gen 4 items to our lovely puppets.
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: Rhetco September 30, 2013, 06:30:05 PM: I like the idea of having "standard" follow JP official, while having stuff like the TD cast in their own tier. It would be good for experimenting, and if it doesn't work out, it'll be easier to go back to what we have now than if we made another server. It's certainly worth a try, in my opinion.
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: shai_LP September 30, 2013, 06:42:41 PM: I'm ok with whatever we do.

Always bugged me that a few official puppets got shafted because of their unofficial cousins being stronger [Kikuri is the one that comes to mind the most] So an Official/Unofficial Split would be neat.

Turning it into an Em Dedicated Simulator allows Ags to become god but some Em Only things are really fun so I don't have a problem with it.

If we go the five miles and Import Mons [within reason or not] froms TPPE/Unofficial jp patches even better, although I doubt that will be happening. 4th Gen and above items I'm on the fence about but I'd deal.

I don't think a client split would be very wise, Server split would be better, but is shoving everything in one Server and just dividing by banlist [Standard/UU more like QQ/imajerk etc] out of the question?

~~Of course, I want the Unofficial Prismriver Combo and Unofficial Advents if possible but..~~

Yo this sounds like a good enough time to ask as any, where does the 3rd Gen Shedinja glitch (the very same that allows zfairy to learn killer moves like Eruption and Pain Split] fall into this? Would it's inclusion still be shelved? or would we take the "This is an Em Server" route and Ags would tirelessly work to patch it out of his rom?

I don't even know if that last one is even a thing without ASM but still.
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: joshcja September 30, 2013, 07:32:05 PM: First of all I'm actually happy with the current meta of 1.8 as almost all "main" play styles are viable with the sole exception of full stall.

In terms of splitting content...why bother splitting/shrinking our already tiny meta ever further? Just keep the server and the emerald hack on the same page. Most of what you'd be adding will be buffs to "bad" puppets or autoubers anyways and I'm all for meta diversity.

@ Shai, nobody uses Kikuri because Kikuri is a badmon.

A few of the gen 4 items/abilities/moves would be fun but for the love of god no choice scarf/LO/Specs. E Belt and a few other items could be pretty nifty though and would fill niches nicely.
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: DoctorShanks September 30, 2013, 08:06:37 PM: That Zombie Fairy thing happens in official, so it's just a feature that we don't have yet. And personally, I'm excited for it.
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: Doesnt September 30, 2013, 08:26:29 PM: atm either people play fr 1.8, get on server, and get confused by new puppets

or they play em 1.8, get on server, and get confused by missing abilities/moves (hyper beam getsu, levitate magan, etc.)

(tppe people don't count because nasty plot smarisa and exploding yumekos are silly)

i personally say we just make it consistent with em as i don't want to remove futo/stones from all my teams that have them but either way's fine by me

also did magan and kikuri really see much use when yoshika and stones weren't common

their movepools are absolutely atrocious, even compared to things like dhina and alice

if anything got screwed it's dmokou, yoshi does nearly everything she does except resist fire and take reason
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: shai_LP September 30, 2013, 08:44:47 PM: : joshcja September 30, 2013, 07:32:05 PM
@ Shai, nobody uses Kikuri because Kikuri is a badmon.

She's the first thing that came to mind, not a shining example!

doesnt probably hit on the dot with dmokou/yoshika

> exploding yumekos

is this really a thing? is it tutor or egg moves?
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: Doesnt September 30, 2013, 08:57:21 PM: : shai_LP September 30, 2013, 08:44:47 PM
> exploding yumekos

is this really a thing? is it tutor or egg moves?

from what i've heard there's an explosion tutor and damn near everything can learn it

almost makes me want to play tppe just to break the game's face in
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: shai_LP September 30, 2013, 09:04:51 PM: in Bizzaro shoddy, TPPE server would just be full of silly wouldn't it

Doesnt you haven't lived until you done a Fully Random Run of TPPE

managed to get to the postgame before dying but this is neither here or there.

Just a reminder to peeps though, the usable version of the E4-only mons always usually had a BST/General Stat Decrease [For example, Dark Alice used to have 120 base speed, and I think she might still have 120 base speed for the E4's pet version in official].

So JK-Sanae isn't quite Kyogre++ as her E4 pet stats would suggest, Same to MPPSuika's big stats taking a hit and EXMarisa having the defenses of paper.

~~I don't know why I'm trying so hard what will probably happen is that we stick to em and that will be the end of it~~
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: Mille September 30, 2013, 10:09:48 PM: : Doesnt September 30, 2013, 08:57:21 PM
: shai_LP September 30, 2013, 08:44:47 PM
> exploding yumekos

is this really a thing? is it tutor or egg moves?

from what i've heard there's an explosion tutor and damn near everything can learn it

almost makes me want to play tppe just to break the game's face in

its not until sevii islands first trip
you cant really break much about tppe until the johto postgame, its the main thing stopping me from wanting to try it

theres also a spikes tutor that satori forms can learn and dsatori cant
but it doesnt matter because you slide to regular satori then back to defense after you learn a move
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: EXSariel September 30, 2013, 10:26:02 PM: So here's the deal, I can make an "official" clause, which is a clause that demands your teams be pure. Which is to say, if it's not in JP FR 1.812, the battle does not start when the clause is in effect. This would be a bit more simple then just adding a banlist because then you can mix and match, which is to say, you can have an "official" ubers or an "unofficial" ubers, "official" UU, "unofficial" OU, you get the idea. With this, a split between official and unofficial is more subtle, easier to work with and more transparent.

That might be opening up a can of worms though. Transparency means it's likely people will default one or the other and the one neglected will end up falling out of style. That is an assumption based on 'crowd hivemind' theories though, and it's really ultimately up to the community. What do you guys think? I know all of you would already approve of this kind of motion but do you think it's good for the server to do this?
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: DoctorShanks September 30, 2013, 11:22:40 PM: : EXSariel September 30, 2013, 10:26:02 PM
That might be opening up a can of worms though. Transparency means it's likely people will default one or the other and the one neglected will end up falling out of style. That is an assumption based on 'crowd hivemind' theories though, and it's really ultimately up to the community. What do you guys think? I know all of you would already approve of this kind of motion but do you think it's good for the server to do this?

I'm the only one who voted "no" on the poll. As a result, I'll be defaulting Official.

Unofficial additions would be for the benefit of those that already play with us. Newcomers expecting everyone to be playing Official might end up disappointed. Maybe if we have a sticky thread detailing all of the additions in the Unofficial clause... That might clear some confusion.

What we have now:
Person 1: Does anyone wanna battle?
Person 2: Sure!

What this update would bring
Person 1: Does anyone wanna battle?
Person 2: Sure! Official or Unofficial?
Person 1: Unofficial
Person 2: Oh... never mind then
----------------------------------------------------------------
Person 1: Does anyone wanna battle?
Person 2: Sure! Official or Unofficial?
Person 1: Unofficial
Person 2: Oh, okay, let me load up my Unofficial team then
----------------------------------------------------------------
Person 1: Does anyone wanna play Official?
*No response*
Person 2: Does anyone wanna play Unofficial?
Person 3: Sure!

I imagine those that are with us now would make teams for both games, but newcomers would join up and default one or the other (and hopefully both down the line). Then again, having two different games might bring twice as much interest in the server, just as long as we include the fact that there are two different games in the download thread.
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: Doesnt September 30, 2013, 11:37:53 PM: In case anyone disagrees with Shanks' point, I'm defaulting Extended as I don't care to scrub Futo/Stones from every team of mine that uses them :/

In terms of splitting content...why bother splitting/shrinking our already tiny meta ever further? Just keep the server and the emerald hack on the same page. Most of what you'd be adding will be buffs to "bad" puppets or autoubers anyways and I'm all for meta diversity.

Seconding this.
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: shai_LP October 01, 2013, 12:44:03 AM: having the clause there would be nice though.

Think of it like Early VGC for 5th gen. [5th gen obtainable only ircc]

Default meta should have whatever has the most mons though barring ubers I think though
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: joshcja October 01, 2013, 02:42:40 AM: : Doesnt September 30, 2013, 11:37:53 PM
In case anyone disagrees with Shanks' point, I'm defaulting Extended as I don't care to scrub Futo/Stones from every team of mine that uses them :/

Seconding this

In terms of splitting content...why bother splitting/shrinking our already tiny meta ever further? Just keep the server and the emerald hack on the same page. Most of what you'd be adding will be buffs to "bad" puppets or autoubers anyways and I'm all for meta diversity.

Seconding this.

But seriously, we're based of EM 1.8 not FR 1.8.

Its pretty much a win win, we can point people to the source to claim somewhat legitimacy and it keeps Agastya from becoming god via his own lazyness :p
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: EXSariel October 01, 2013, 03:04:19 AM: : joshcja October 01, 2013, 02:42:40 AM
But seriously, we're based of EM 1.8 not FR 1.8.

I never asked for this. It's especially egregious in Agastya's case considering he's much more strongly towards being 'pure' and yet all the 'unpure' content in this server is almost exclusively his.

It's an inconsistency that I've been meaning to clear up, and I intended on doing that with whatever result comes up from this discussion.
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: shai_LP October 01, 2013, 04:02:38 AM: : EXSariel October 01, 2013, 03:04:19 AM
: joshcja October 01, 2013, 02:42:40 AM
But seriously, we're based of EM 1.8 not FR 1.8.

I never asked for this. It's especially egregious in Agastya's case considering he's much more strongly towards being 'pure' to his ROM

It's an inconsistency that I've been meaning to clear up, and I intended on doing that with whatever result comes up from this discussion.

I don't mean to be "that person" but..

I think he even said it himself self-deprecatingly.

Either nothing changes or we get extended mons from a result of this though, I'm hoping the latter but its all up to the people who actually do the coding work.
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: EXSariel October 01, 2013, 07:40:38 PM: Wow, so I truly am alone then. I should probably stop trying to make decisions and go back to just being "that person that codes shoddy"
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: SG-Sanae October 01, 2013, 07:45:45 PM: The only thing I'd like to see is a quick way to tell whether or not a move/puppet is official or not. Otherwise, I'm curious to see what the designers come up with.
: Re: Server purity and the potential for custom puppets
: EXSariel October 01, 2013, 11:25:24 PM: I've ultimately decided this was a nonsensical direction from the get go and that my lack of foresight and observation has caused me to roll the ball the wrong way. As it stands, the server is more or less already 'extended' and everyone seems to have come to terms with that fact, so that's how it's going to stay. As for any additional extended puppets... I'm leaving that entirely up to Agastya. I'll admit, I may have used this as a potential excuse to add a few of my own things I thought were creative while still retaining the purity I wanted, but upon realizing I never had the latter, I lost interest in the former. And when that happened, I noticed just how unnecessary this decision felt. Doing it at this point really would be pointless segregation that we don't need. I had thought there was actually some struggle between staying pure and introducing new things, but as it turned out, that struggle was entirely internal and specific to myself and I've given up on that.

I think from here, I'm going to stop making decisions by myself and let Agastya handle all the decision making as far as anything involving the server's community goes. I'll just be here in the back being the server's mechanic while "running" the wiki and forums. Sorry for stirring up so much commotion.